[Mike Powell]

On my last trip to England via Amsterdam, I was sat in the plane at Seattle waiting for takeoff, and I was sat between 5 Iranian guys

They were on the way to Teheran and were quite fun

Just coz they are sat on a gazillion tons of oil and are not keen on the Israelis everybody wants to slaughter their cities

Pretty disgusting

Leave em alone

Come on, with Iran start using other nations' currencies and GOLDS for their oil tradings. Do you think those globalists-Zionists elites will let Iran go scotch free? Remember, they controlled the very world reserve currency that we FORCED to use and anyone who even try to stay neutral from their system will get the receiving end. Just look at the late JFK for example, he issued the Executive Order 11110 for the SILVER money to circulate the system (and minimize the Federal Reserve's power in the process). Well, six months later they murdered him in cold blood.

[Someneck]

This is actually a point that strikes very close to the British heart. Britain has a sense of national pride at the moment that runs almost entirely on the fumes from the empty petrol tank of the Second World War.

It a pretty sad state of affairs.

I have always said that the Russians won the second world war and the Americans and British simply mopped up

However, I will claim the Battle of Britain in 1940 as a solo effort. After that, Hitler gave up all plans to invade Britain

We won, he lost and so nobody "saved our arses", except for in 1945 perhaps when the stand off twixt the Russians and the Americans stopped the Russians coming further West

It's still the 7th largest economy in the world which isn't bad for a 60 million population (4% of China ?)

Of course the underclass is similar to the American underclass (without the guns) and they all say "WE" won the cup when they are a set of losers who struggle to hold down a minimum wage job - which is exactly why they need the opiate of the "WE"

I don't believe in vicarious success and I like individual effort - which is why there is more than a trace of Mitt Romney about me (without the lies) and to my eternal shame

.

[Far-Right Sage]

Britain has a sense of national pride at the moment that runs almost entirely on the fumes from the empty petrol tank of the Second World War.

It a pretty sad state of affairs.

It would be more sensible if the British were fueled by the Napoleonic Wars or the Crimean War. Unlike those conflicts, all the Second World War did for Britain was bankrupt its economy, disintegrate its empire, lose her all her colonies, and downgrade her to an American satellite.

[Someneck]

It would be more sensible if the British were fueled by the Napoleonic Wars or the Crimean War. Unlike those conflicts, all the Second World War did for Britain was bankrupt its economy, disintegrate its empire, lose her all her colonies, and downgrade her to an American satellite.

A lot of truth there

Which proves I take criticism of Britain when it is fact based

Although, to the common man, the Napoleonic wars were a disaster- the troops were thrown into the streets to starve , and the resulting crime wave cause the Vagrancy Act of 1814 to criminalize people "exposing wounds and deformities with intent to gain alms"

Showing your war wounds when begging for food !

The US doesn't act much differently in 2012 and the unemployment and the number of suicides among returning troops shows that

It never changes - anywhere

.

[Figlio di Moros]

I have always said that the Russians won the second world war and the Americans and British simply mopped up.

You're joking, right? The US defeated the Nazi's in North Africa and Italy- without us, they'd have hit the Suez and broke the spine of your empire. Without a western or Mediterranean front, Germany could've brought the whole weight of it's military to bear against Russia- I'm not saying it was unimportant, but it did take a combined effort.

[Someneck]

You're joking, right? The US defeated the Nazi's in North Africa and Italy- without us, they'd have hit the Suez and broke the spine of your empire. Without a western or Mediterranean front, Germany could've brought the whole weight of it's military to bear against Russia- I'm not saying it was unimportant, but it did take a combined effort.

North Africa was won by the British Commonwealth forces at El Alamein; the Americans surrendered at the Kasserine pass.

I didn't want to mention that - I said "Please proceed" - but you did a Romney and asked for it.

The Germans lost the war in December 1942 at Stalingrad - a quarter of million men - it was mopping up after that

I am not saying the Americans were useless - the USAAF dropped condoms for my dad was he was killing Japanese in the jungles of Burma

[Decky]

You're joking, right? The US defeated the Nazi's in North Africa and Italy- without us, they'd have hit the Suez and broke the spine of your empire.

Please write us a history of the war in north Africa. I am not being sarcastic I want to see what Americans believe about it I could do with a laugh.

Ignore someneck pointing out that you had nothing whatsoever with defending Suez, tell me what you believe. I genuinely look forwards to it.

[Figlio di Moros]

In short, General Montegomery was getting his ass kicked by Rommel, then General Patton came in and cleaned up North Africa, messed up in Sicily because him and Montegomery tried to one-up each other in Palmyra, before running through Italy and Rommel being forced to commit suicide in France.

[fuser]

British Commonwealth forces had decisively defeated the Germans at the second battle of el alamein before Americans landed in Africa.

[Figlio di Moros]

Just like the Canadians burned down the White House, right?

[fuser]

What?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein

Please see the dates of these campaigns, Montgomery wasn't running around helplessly until the great American hero saved his ass.

[Decky]

In short, General Montegomery was getting his ass kicked by Rommel, then General Patton came in and cleaned up North Africa, messed up in Sicily because him and Montegomery tried to one-up each other in Palmyra, before running through Italy and Rommel being forced to commit suicide in France.

You have delivered massively. Thank you. I love Americans talking about history, you and Wolfman should publish a book.

[Figlio di Moros]

To be fair, you're re-asserting your own perspective, no different than I am. Like, for instance, Canadians claiming they burned down the executive mansion in retaliation for us burning Canada, despite it being the British who did this. Similarly, the difference in opinion between Americans and Brits/Canadians on the war of 1812 as a whole; we both claim victory, on the precidence that 1) No-one gained ground, and 2) Britain largely supported the Monroe doctrine.

So, in similar regard, your "turning point" is open to consideration.

[Godstud]

Technically, we'd still be at war, since the War of 1812 was never officially ended. I think everyone just got bored and went home. Yes, it was Canada(under British rule). It was really a silly "war".

[Decky]

So, in similar regard, your "turning point" is open to consideration.

No it isn't the Italians and the Germans were halted and pushed into retreat (ruing away from Suez) by commonwealth forces. You are objectively wrong. Don't worry you don't have to apologise for your ignorance, I have heard about the "schools" over there.

[Far-Right Sage]

Commonwealth forces did indeed gain the initiative before the arrival of U.S. forces in Tunisia, but it's safe to say that the British would have been run through Suez and Palestine into Iran were it not for the Eastern Front.

[layman]

Well Germany would have won the war had it not been for the eastern front. There is no realy doubt of this.

It would also have won if the UK had remained neutral most likely.

I think they would also have won had the USA stood out but "the allies" would have had a better chance than in the above two scenarios.

[GunsnRoses]

In short, General Montegomery was getting his ass kicked by Rommel, then General Patton came in and cleaned up North Africa, messed up in Sicily because him and Montegomery tried to one-up each other in Palmyra, before running through Italy and Rommel being forced to commit suicide in France.

Rommel killed himself in his home town in Germany, and was forced to do so by his own German command.

Other than that I do believe that the Americans played a very substantial role in the final defeat of Germany.

[mikema63]

We did it together so no one should be claiming sole victory.

[Far-Right Sage]

Rommel killed himself in his home town in Germany, and was forced to do so by his own German command

That is germane to the topic in no way, as it is absolutely unrelated to the military situation in North Africa. Despite the carnage in Tunisia, Rommel was still extended command for the defense of Normandy. Rommel committed suicide because of the discovery of his loose connections with those involved with Stauffenberg's treasonous July Plot. He was given the choice of maintaining honor and a state funeral or being disgraced by men like men such as Canaris. Whether Rommel was for or against the assassination attempt, he was a man of honor and thus chose honor.