[Rothbardian]

Now Rothbardian I have to call bullshit on you. Show me a single statistic to support that. You can't. Why? Because there is not a shred of truth in it.

I am not going to waste time posting for the thousandth time the statistics that support the lifesaving effects of universal health care.

Really Man. You just can't post nonsense and expect us to believe it. So where is it? Where is your proof for an outrageous and obviously untrue statement like that?

In my experience people like you who are so utterly flabbergasted by reality do not respond to statistics.

America prior to the HMO act was if not #1, near the top in terms of health care. It was dirt cheap and for those who still couldn't afford it, there were charities, friendly societies, etc.

Canada, on the other hand, has less available health care today than even we have. As it turns out, there's no bureaucrat with a real magic wand that can overrule the laws of supply and demand. That may be difficult for someone like you to grasp, which is tragic.

[Pants-of-dog]

America prior to the HMO act was if not #1, near the top in terms of health care.

Please provide evidence for this claim. Thank you.

Canada, on the other hand, has less available health care today than even we have.

Please provide evidence for this claim. Thank you.

[nucklepunche]

for those who still couldn't afford it, there were charities, friendly societies, etc.

Charity, the old libertarian cop-out. Is charity really a good thing? A better society would be one in which there was less of a need for charity in the first place.

[Rothbardian]

Please provide evidence for this claim. Thank you.

http://www.google.com

Charity, the old libertarian cop-out. Is charity really a good thing? A better society would be one in which there was less of a need for charity in the first place.

I'm sorry but this is borderline idiotic. The only difference between charity and 'welfare' is one is taken at the point of a gun and one is given voluntarily. If you feel that threatening to kill people creates a better society, you have my sincere sympathy as well as my suggestion that you seek professional help and avoid having children.

[ThereBeDragons]

http://www.google.com

A more specific source, if you would please.

I'm sorry but this is borderline idiotic. The only difference between charity and 'welfare' is one is taken at the point of a gun and one is given voluntarily. If you feel that threatening to kill people creates a better society, you have my sincere sympathy as well as my suggestion that you seek professional help and avoid having children.

It must be difficult to live in a world where you think 99% of other people need professional psychiatric help and shouldn't breed.

[Pants-of-dog]

http://www.google.com

In other words, you have no evidence.

Is your argument based solely on stuff you made up, or does it eventually have something to do with reality?

[Rothbardian]

It must be difficult to live in a world where you think 99% of other people need professional psychiatric help and shouldn't breed.

I'd rather live a difficult live than a deluded one. Or a psychopathic one. Not sure which applies in your case, and don't really care.

In other words, you have no evidence.

Is your argument based solely on stuff you made up, or does it eventually have something to do with reality?

Unlike you, I have actually researched these topics. If you want to take my unwillingness to spend hours gathering information to spoon feed it to you just so you can ignore it because it doesn't jive with your preconceived notions as a victory then you're welcome to it. I hope I've been able to brighten your day.

[Pants-of-dog]

Unlike you, I have actually researched these topics. If you want to take my unwillingness to spend hours gathering information to spoon feed it to you just so you can ignore it because it doesn't jive with your preconceived notions as a victory then you're welcome to it. I hope I've been able to brighten your day.

If you have already researched these topics, as you claim, then it should NOT take you hours to get the information.

You claimed the following:

Canada, on the other hand, has less available health care today than even we have.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media ... s_2012.pdf

Please go to table 3 of this PDF on page 8/112.

Look at the row labelled: "Experienced access barrier because of cost in past year"

33% of US citizens were unable to access health care due to cost compared to 15% for Canadians.

There, I have provided information that you are incorrect. I can do this because I have researched these topics, and therefore it does not take hours gathering information to spoon feed it to you.

[ThereBeDragons]

I'd rather live a difficult live than a deluded one. Or a psychopathic one. Not sure which applies in your case, and don't really care.

A person who believes that 99% of people are in need of professional psychiatric care and should be barred from breeding is both deluded and psychopathic. Twofer.

[Rothbardian]

A person who believes that 99% of people are in need of professional psychiatric care and should be barred from breeding is both deluded and psychopathic. Twofer.

People who lack the basic human empathy required to have a problem with harming innocent people are psychopaths, or possibly sociopaths.

People who can see reality and not experience it in realistic terms are deluded.

This is not a matter of opinion.

If you have already researched these topics, as you claim, then it should NOT take you hours to get the information.

You claimed the following:

Canada, on the other hand, has less available health care today than even we have.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media ... s_2012.pdf

Please go to table 3 of this PDF on page 8/112.

Look at the row labelled: "Experienced access barrier because of cost in past year"

33% of US citizens were unable to access health care due to cost compared to 15% for Canadians.

There, I have provided information that you are incorrect. I can do this because I have researched these topics, and therefore it does not take hours gathering information to spoon feed it to you.

Well, I guess now I have to eat my words.

You've no doubt looked into these statistics for yourself, as well. Tell me, how do you countenance all the illegal immigrants making up so much of the 33% included in the U.S. statistic, knowing Canada has the same restrictions?

[ThereBeDragons]

People who lack the basic human empathy required to have a problem with harming innocent people are psychopaths, or possibly sociopaths.

A person who believes that 99% of people are in need of professional psychiatric care and should be barred from breeding (you) is both deluded and psychopathic. This is not a matter of opinion.

This is not a matter of opinion.

Indeed, you're right. Your statement is objectively wrong, since diagnoses of mental illness depends on abnormal functioning, and when you declare that the vast majority of people alive are suffering from mental illnesses, when they are in fact considered normal by society and psychologists alike, it becomes clear that your statements are nothing more than megalomaniacial fantasies.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, I guess now I have to eat my words.

You've no doubt looked into these statistics for yourself, as well. Tell me, how do you countenance all the illegal immigrants making up so much of the 33% included in the U.S. statistic, knowing Canada has the same restrictions?

I would first ask how you know that illegal immigrants were included in that number.

[Rothbardian]

I would first ask how you know that illegal immigrants were included in that number.

Not illegals, my apologies, that was me posting when I should have been sleeping. What needs to be removed from the statistics is people who have voluntarily chosen not to have insurance in the U.S. Once you remove them, the statistics between the U.S. and Canada are nearly the same.

There are other costs that come along with the centralized systems of canada too. Canada has less physicians per capita, less equipment per capita (like MRI's, CT scans, etc), the greater influence of special interest groups. That's as of a few years ago which is the last time I dug into the data.

Just to be clear, this is not me advocating the U.S. system, which is terrible.

Indeed, you're right. Your statement is objectively wrong, since diagnoses of mental illness depends on abnormal functioning, and when you declare that the vast majority of people alive are suffering from mental illnesses, when they are in fact considered normal by society and psychologists alike, it becomes clear that your statements are nothing more than megalomaniacial fantasies.

Key symptoms of a Psychopath/Sociopath:

1. Glib and superficial
2. Egocentric and grandiose
3. Lack of remorse or guilt
4. Lack of empathy
5. Deceitful and manipulative
6. Shallow emotions

Sorry, this is not my opinion; this is an empirical observation based on the research done in the field of psychology. You just don't like having it applied to you, and you're apparently too childish to deal with that.

For the record, I never said anyone should be barred from breeding, but then you're clearly not stable so I wouldn't expect you to require me to actually make a claim before attributing it to me.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not illegals, my apologies, that was me posting when I should have been sleeping. What needs to be removed from the statistics is people who have voluntarily chosen not to have insurance in the U.S. Once you remove them, the statistics between the U.S. and Canada are nearly the same.

Define "voluntarily". Does someone who chooses not to buy insurance because they have to choose between that and eating making a voluntary choice?

There are other costs that come along with the centralized systems of canada too. Canada has less physicians per capita, less equipment per capita (like MRI's, CT scans, etc), the greater influence of special interest groups. That's as of a few years ago which is the last time I dug into the data.

Just to be clear, this is not me advocating the U.S. system, which is terrible.

Let us not pretend that you are making factual claims about Canada. We wnet down the whole evidence route and you ended up "eating your words" as I recall.

Canada's system is not perfect. The triage concept in Canada results in long wait times for elective treatments. However, it seems to cost less and get better results.

[ThereBeDragons]

Key symptoms of a Psychopath/Sociopath:

1. Glib and superficial
2. Egocentric and grandiose
3. Lack of remorse or guilt
4. Lack of empathy
5. Deceitful and manipulative
6. Shallow emotions

Sorry, this is not my opinion; this is an empirical observation based on the research done in the field of psychology. You just don't like having it applied to you, and you're apparently too childish to deal with that.

You've tarred at least ninety percent of people alive with that brush. I'm perfectly happy to have you hit me with that label alongside them, since if I were considered sane by you I would certainly be a psychopath.

[Rothbardian]

You've tarred at least ninety percent of people alive with that brush. I'm perfectly happy to have you hit me with that label alongside them, since if I were considered sane by you I would certainly be a psychopath.

What the hell? Is English not your first language? That, again, is the science of psychology, NOT my opinion. And I would disagree that 90% of the public lives in a state where they'd condone harming innocent people the way you do.

You and your twisted ilk make up maybe 4% of the population. That, again, is science, something I know you get your panties all in a twist about. Just bear in mind that I'm not the king of science so I did not create that 4% statistic.

Define "voluntarily". Does someone who chooses not to buy insurance because they have to choose between that and eating making a voluntary choice?

It's a reference to people who have health care offered through their employer and choose not to get it, or that qualify for government aid and choose not to take part in it.

Let us not pretend that you are making factual claims about Canada. We wnet down the whole evidence route and you ended up "eating your words" as I recall.

Canada's system is not perfect. The triage concept in Canada results in long wait times for elective treatments. However, it seems to cost less and get better results.

I was being EXTREMELY sarcastic with that 'eating my words' remark.

The discussion was never about whether Canada was perfect, but thanks for pointing that out rather than acknowledging the system's obvious flaws. Your glaring bias is why I don't waste time doing research for you.

[ThereBeDragons]

What the hell? Is English not your first language? That, again, is the science of psychology, NOT my opinion. And I would disagree that 90% of the public lives in a state where they'd condone harming innocent people the way you do.

You have yet to demonstrate that I lack empathy; if you knew the first thing of science you would know that showing a symptom is not conclusive proof that someone has the illness, or you'd be take everyone with unexplained tenderness and conclude they had cancer.

You and your twisted ilk make up maybe 4% of the population. That, again, is science, something I know you get your panties all in a twist about. Just bear in mind that I'm not the king of science so I did not create that 4% statistic.

You essentially said that everyone who believes that it's possible for government to help people is a psychopath who should not breed. If you think the world is 96% an-cap, well, you've checked right out of reality and into wonderland. I'd wager that at least four fifths of the world is more statist than a libertarian like Phred, and you've tossed him into "my camp" as well. The lunatic thinks everyone else is insane.

The discussion was never about whether Canada was perfect, but thanks for pointing that out rather than acknowledging the system's obvious flaws. Your glaring bias is why I don't waste time doing research for you.

You haven't done any research for him. He did some research for you. After he provided it, you said "well, the discussion was never about that, thanks for wasting my time." If anything the last line is something he should be saying.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's a reference to people who have health care offered through their employer and choose not to get it, or that qualify for government aid and choose not to take part in it.

And how many people are those?

I was being EXTREMELY sarcastic with that 'eating my words' remark.

Really? Why? I did show you were objectively incorrect about comparative access to care between the US and Canadian models.

The discussion was never about whether Canada was perfect, but thanks for pointing that out rather than acknowledging the system's obvious flaws. Your glaring bias is why I don't waste time doing research for you.

You are correct. The discussion was about whether or not "Canada, on the other hand, has less available health care today than even" the US has.

You claimed that this was true. I showed you were wrong.