[ronimacarroni]

It always makes me nervous when right wing people mention that public education should go on the chopping board as if it were no big deal.
If you've ever been to anywhere in Latin America you'd know that the free market won't fix it when it comes to education.
So what do libertarians propose.

[Husky]

[Rei Murasame]

That graph looks pretty damning on its own, but there is in fact empirical evidence that 'catch-up' countries like Germany and Japan caught up because of the work carried out by the public school system - specifically the Prussian model - on most of the 'average people' in the society.

Existing evidence, mostly from British textile industries, rejects the importance of formal education for the Industrial Revolution. We provide new evidence from Prussia, a technological follower, where early-19th-century institutional reforms created the conditions to adopt the exogenously emerging new technologies. Our unique school-enrollment and factory-employment database links 334 counties from pre-industrial 1816 to two industrial phases in 1849 and 1882. Controlling extensively for pre-industrial development, we use preindustrial education as an instrument to identify variation in later education that is exogenous to industrialization itself. We find that basic education significantly accelerated non-textile industrialization in both phases of the Industrial Revolution.

[...]

Humboldt managed to initiate fundamental reforms of curricula, teaching methods, teacher education, and auditing in the school system. The reforms were rather pragmatic, and many sources report that as early as 1811, they were successfully implemented even in distant regions and had visible consequences in schools (cf. Schmitt 2001).

[...]

The reforms advanced Humboldt’s humanistic educational ideal of an encompassing general education which aimed to implant the ability of rational thinking in the broad masses. The general knowledge of the Humboldt type may be particularly relevant to foster the ability to deal with economic disequilibria. According to the Handbook of German Education History (Jeismann 1987, p. 13), the expansion of the education system fostered industrial modernization with lasting effect, particularly “through an education, extending by and by into the broad masses, to ways of thinking that were oriented ultimately at scientific rationality, by familiarization with intellectual rigor, accuracy, and verifiability of the results of one’s own endeavors.” Although not focusing on specific technical abilities, the Prussian education system may thus have fostered the ability to learn how to learn, which provides the basis for independent study in a synergistic learning process (cf. Cunha and Heckman 2007 for a modern emphasis).

Compared to all other countries, Prussian schools may have taught a curriculum that was of particular use in adopting new technologies (cf. Easterlin 1981 for an example that a rationalistic education was not the uniform rule at the time). Somewhat ironically, although the Humboldt reforms were partly aimed against an excessively utilitarian type of education that conveyed just the skills necessary for a specific occupation, they may actually have imparted exactly the type of skills necessary for an economy in which adaptation to rapid change was asked for.

[...]

Our results suggest that without her internationally outstanding education system before the onset of the Industrial Revolution, Prussia would probably not have been able to be a successful industrial follower, to the extent that she managed to take over technological leadership from Britain in many sectors by the end of the 19th century (cf. Landes 1969). In line with catch-up models in the spirit of Nelson and Phelps (1966), technological diffusion depended strongly on investments in human capital. Economic history may in fact be more in line with this type of growth models than was previously thought. In terms of the adoption of new technologies (rather than their subsequent use in production when they have become standard), human skills may have been a complement to new technologies not only starting with the early 20th century, as shown by Goldin and Katz (1998), but even earlier. Education played a much larger role both in the first and the second phase of the Industrial Revolution outside Britain than most assessments based on the current state of empirical evidence seemed to suggest. The relative importance of the different reasons for the differing findings between Prussia and Britain – inferior British data, textile-sector specifics, leader-follower differences, and Humboldt’s ideals in Prussian education – open a range of interesting questions for future research.

[Soix]

I think a large proportion of libertarians, and myself included, do not object to public schooling, per se, but the centralization of such schooling. Why not devolve the authority for public schooling as local as possible?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

I think a large proportion of libertarians, and myself included, do not object to public schooling, per se, but the centralization of such schooling. Why not devolve the authority for public schooling as local as possible?

What sort of authority are you specifically talking about? Libertarians have a wide range of views on the whole subject of education. Are you saying that different towns/counties/regions should decide on their own separate curriculum entirely, or that they should buy their supplies locally? I.e. are you saying that education standards/policies should be decided by each local area? That the state of Texas or Kansas should be free to teach Christian Creationism in classrooms, and not teach evolution? Can the city of Birmingham, AL or its county change textbooks to say that slavery had nothing to do with the events leading up to the American Civil War?

When you say local authority, can you clarify what you precisely mean?

[Soix]

When you say local authority, can you clarify what you precisely mean?

As local as possible. Ideally, each school be allowed to teach whatever those who "own" the school think the employees of the school (the teachers) should teach. Let competition between schools for students better the education standards.

The whole creationism/evolution debate is a non-starter. People, on the whole, are more interested in what will make them more money and will abandon cherished beliefs if it means commanding a higher salary.

[ronimacarroni]

As local as possible. Ideally, each school be allowed to teach whatever those who "own" the school think the employees of the school (the teachers) should teach. Let competition between schools for students better the education standards.

The whole creationism/evolution debate is a non-starter. People, on the whole, are more interested in what will make them more money and will abandon cherished beliefs if it means commanding a higher salary.

I don't think competition is the right way to go about it.
George Bush instituted no child left behind for schools to compete via standardized testing and it ended up being a failure.
I think the best solution would be for inspectors to go to each school and write evaluations based on what they think would be best for each individual school.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

As local as possible. Ideally, each school be allowed to teach whatever those who "own" the school think the employees of the school (the teachers) should teach. Let competition between schools for students better the education standards.

The whole creationism/evolution debate is a non-starter. People, on the whole, are more interested in what will make them more money and will abandon cherished beliefs if it means commanding a higher salary.

I'm not remotely interested in debating with Creationists, I randomly picked it to make a point while asking you to clarify what you wrote. Dismantling education standards and allowing for the kind of anarchy you describe will result in an even more scientifically illiterate, politically unthinking American populace. I find it hard to believe that you are serious about wanting school districts to be self-regulating, let alone the fact you actually put into words the idea that businessmen and special interest groups know more about education ethics and quality than individuals and organizations dedicated to simply giving children a quality, balanced education.

[ronimacarroni]

Oh also I think we should divide classes according to learning styles.
It is known in psychology that some people are visual learners, others listening learners, etc...
It seems kind of callous to just keep the system we have now that benefits a particular learning style knowing what we know.

[Soix]

Dismantling education standards and allowing for the kind of anarchy you describe will result in an even more scientifically illiterate, politically unthinking American populace.

I think, and hope, that allowing schools to act more in the interest of those attending the school (the children) will result in the opposite.

let alone the fact you actually put into words the idea that businessmen and special interest groups know more about education ethics and quality than individuals and organizations dedicated to simply giving children a quality, balanced education.

Where did I say businessmen know more about education ethics than people actively running the school, i.e. the teachers and administrators? Save us from businessmen.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Where did I say businessmen know more about education ethics than people actively running the school, i.e. the teachers and administrators? Save us from businessmen.

What do you call someone in your universe who would own a school, dictate to the educators (employees as you call them) what they teach children, in an attempt to compete with other schools and their curriculum, to make money? Not a businessman?

[Soix]

What do you call someone in your universe who would own a school, dictate to the educators (employees as you call them) what they teach children, in an attempt to compete with other schools and their curriculum, to make money? Not a businessman?

Where did I say that schools should be for profit?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Where did I say that schools should be for profit?

When you said "people who 'own' [schools]" it sounded like you were speaking literally about people running schools for profit, because of your comments about schools competing with each other, treating educators like they're just employees, etc. It sounded like you weren't actually serious about public schooling, and you support a for-profit education system. I'm actually glad to see that you're saying you do not support something like that.

[Soix]

you support a for-profit education system. I'm actually glad to see that you're saying you do not support something like that.

Well then it would cease to be public schooling, wouldn't it? Keep up.

[Someone5]

I think a large proportion of libertarians, and myself included, do not object to public schooling, per se, but the centralization of such schooling. Why not devolve the authority for public schooling as local as possible?

Because that leads to an absolute mess when the funding and standards are set locally. For administrative purposes, yes, it ought to be handled locally, but the money and materials ought to be handled centrally. Otherwise you end up with ass backwards public systems as seen in the United States, where even private schools can do better.

Tying education funding to local property values is an obviously problematic feedback loop, and has no logical basis.

[Eran]

It always makes me nervous when right wing people mention that public education should go on the chopping board as if it were no big deal.
If you've ever been to anywhere in Latin America you'd know that the free market won't fix it when it comes to education.
So what do libertarians propose.

I don't see any evidence, from anybody, that private education is in any way inferior to public education.

There are many reasons to believe otherwise.

I know of no libertarians who fully support public education, though some do support public funding of education.

Thus the moderate libertarian model is that of vouchers, given to parents (all, or on a means-tested basis) with which to fund the (private) education of their children.

The radical libertarian model, of course, rejects public funding altogether, and suggests relying on parents' own funding, coupled with charitable donations as necessary.

Dismantling education standards and allowing for the kind of anarchy you describe will result in an even more scientifically illiterate, politically unthinking American populace. I find it hard to believe that you are serious about wanting school districts to be self-regulating, let alone the fact you actually put into words the idea that businessmen and special interest groups know more about education ethics and quality than individuals and organizations dedicated to simply giving children a quality, balanced education.

The people who should be in control of the education ideas aren't politicians, business-people or professional educators.

It is parents.

We generally (and for very good reason) trust parents to act in the best interests of the child. Why does anybody think education is somehow different?

Give parents the choice of schools, and they will naturally gravitate towards schools providing excellent, affordable, useful education.

Sure - some parents would prefer schools in which evolution isn't taught. So what? How important is the knowledge of evolution in the practical life of most people?

[Nunt]

If you've ever been to anywhere in Latin America you'd know that the free market won't fix it when it comes to education.
So what do libertarians propose.

If you have ever been to Congo, then you will know that centralized government won't fix anything either

[Rei Murasame]

I'm not sure that the nominal existence of a central government is the thing that's not helping in the Congo.

[Rothbardian]

It always makes me nervous when right wing people mention that public education should go on the chopping board as if it were no big deal.
If you've ever been to anywhere in Latin America you'd know that the free market won't fix it when it comes to education.
So what do libertarians propose.

Is there a specific third world nation you'd like to use in comparison to the U.S.? Let's get this farce rolling.

[ronimacarroni]

Is there a specific third world nation you'd like to use in comparison to the U.S.? Let's get this farce rolling.

Well if you mean list an example of a latin american nation in which a very miniscule portion goes into public schools and private schools are expensive beyond most people's means...
Chile?