[mum]

[youtube]_Zdqp22G_K4[/youtube]

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Stefen Molyneux is a mentally ill, or simply unscrupulous, cult leader who pressures his followers to give him money and abandon their families in something he calls "deFOOing" (family of origin = FOO). He has a strange fixation on rape and even writes that if some people think rape is morally required, then it is "evil" to stop a rape in progress. Obviously, this psychopathic reasoning can be applied to any number of barbaric situations and justify any sort of actions.

https://mises.org/daily/6105/Mr-Molyneux-Responds

Why would you use a crazy person for this?

[slybaldguy]

This must be what happens when you give buzz lightyear a coffee enema. Man, that's one jittery fucker right there.

[SolarCross]

What no one has anything to say on the subject matter of the vid? Just lame ad-hominems aimed at the interviewer. Come on chaps don't be so weak.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

What no one has anything to say on the subject matter of the vid? Just lame ad-hominems aimed at the interviewer. Come on chaps don't be so weak.

Because not only are the people speaking libertarians themselves, which says it all, the video itself is shit. Around 17:00 they are talking about pre-existing conditions and how charities can cover the costs. This thinking is autistic, and the fact Molyneux is either mentally ill or just a scumbag, combined with their libertarian positions, makes this video 29 wasted minutes.

[SolarCross]

Because not only are the people speaking libertarians themselves, which says it all, the video itself is shit. Around 17:00 they are talking about pre-existing conditions and how charities can cover the costs. This thinking is autistic, and the fact Molyneux is either mentally ill or just a scumbag, combined with their libertarian positions, makes this video 29 wasted minutes.

oh well I suppose asking for anything more than lame ad-hom from a socialist was a waste of time. Nevermind then.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

oh well I suppose asking for anything more than lame ad-hom from a socialist was a waste of time. Nevermind then.

Yeah. This video was just so super awesome and grounded in reality that I simply couldn't handle it anymore. It's just so amazing listening to two autistic libertarians talk out of their asses for 29 minutes. I can't imagine anything better.

[Rei Murasame]

Stefen Molyneux's problem, his chief problem, is that he is afraid of psychopaths (he believes that he is 'hunting' them, by advocating the creation of a world where psychopaths would not be able to survive) and he is also afraid of his own mother while simultaneously wishing she were there for him but subjected to his father's authority. His position on anything can be predicted as soon as you understand those two facts, because absolutely all of his podcasts are a projection of those two issues of his, onto the whole world.

I'm not saying that as a cheap shot, Molyneux really is just doing that kind of projection. He just openly reveals it, and it is really visible, and he does not let any of his guests get past those issues. Most people do not build entire political matrices around just their own personal fears alone, but Molyneux has actually done that, and it is really annoying to watch.

[SolarCross]

Yeah. This video was just so super awesome and grounded in reality that I simply couldn't handle it anymore. It's just so amazing listening to two autistic libertarians talk out of their asses for 29 minutes. I can't imagine anything better.

You have already proven my point, why not try and prove your own now?

[Voluntarism]

oh well I suppose asking for anything more than lame ad-hom from a socialist was a waste of time. Nevermind then.

+1

[mum]

oh well I suppose asking for anything more than lame ad-hom from a socialist was a waste of time. Nevermind then.

+1

OK guys, how about you just pretend that I posted some information about the Surgery Center of Oklahoma http://www.surgerycenterok.com/

Can you manage to do that and comment on the fact that this business offers cheaper superior healthcare to people without accepting a penny from the government ?

[Rei Murasame]

Yes, I can comment on it. I think they are a pretty good business, and that such things should be allowed to operate.

Were you expecting anyone to really be against it?

[Brother of Karl]

I don't feel like watching the whole video. I did watch the first few minutes, and the doctor's point that uninsurable procedures cost less than insurable procedures is undeniably true. At least in America.

For instance, the bill for a fairly routine appendectomy was $55,029, mostly covered by insurance, and a charge of $11,139 TO THE PATIENT ANYWAY. The remaining $43,909 that the insurance company owned was negotiated down to only $6,461. This is absolutely NUTS! The recovery room charge (2 hours) was $7500 alone! If this guy didn't have insurance, he would have had to pay the full price or declare bankruptcy.

In comparison, a breast augmentation surgery costs about $3800, which is pretty reasonable compared to hospital surgery. Yet plastic surgeons are one of the highest paid medical specialties.

[nucklepunche]

I don't feel like watching the whole video. I did watch the first few minutes, and the doctor's point that uninsurable procedures cost less than insurable procedures is undeniably true. At least in America.

For instance, the bill for a fairly routine appendectomy was $55,029, mostly covered by insurance, and a charge of $11,139 TO THE PATIENT ANYWAY. The remaining $43,909 that the insurance company owned was negotiated down to only $6,461. This is absolutely NUTS! The recovery room charge (2 hours) was $7500 alone! If this guy didn't have insurance, he would have had to pay the full price or declare bankruptcy.

In comparison, a breast augmentation surgery costs about $3800, which is pretty reasonable compared to hospital surgery. Yet plastic surgeons are one of the highest paid medical specialties.

Stefan Molyneux is not exactly a "cult leader" but I do think he has some strange ideas. The thing is he and this doctor and completely right on this issue, as BoK points out. A broken clock is right twice a day you know. Another key point to look at is how much cheaper health care for animals is for people and animals generally do not have health insurance, although there are a few companies offering some sort of high deductible plan for pets.

The simple reality is anybody who says American health care is the best in the world is either a fool or simply got lucky and has great insurance, yet Obamacare, although it does eliminate some major problems of the system, like people being denied coverage, does absolutely nothing to get down to the root cause of what sucks so royally about American health care.

The main problem really boils down to the fact that hospitals generally get away with charging whatever they want (hospitals, not insurance companies are actually the real villains in American medicine) and they often fleece both patients and insurance companies by massively increasing rates. There have been a few exceptions like the hospital in Oklahoma that has a menu of prices. KaiserPermanente and Intermountain Healthcare have managed to hold down costs some by integrating the entire system, although third part payer is an absolute, unmitigated disaster and I have a hard time taking seriously anybody who defends it.

[Decky]

It is not just cheap it is free, you can force the toffs to pay for it via taxation so real people can have it for free and the best part is the rich don't even use the NHS anyway, they go privite, so they are paying for everyone else's healthcare.

[mikema63]

The main takeaway is that Americas insurance system has a nearly unholy effect on prices.

Even when I was a libertarian I said you needed a purely public system to both provide for all and control costs.

[Eran]

[quote-"nucklepunch"]The main problem really boils down to the fact that hospitals generally get away with charging whatever they want[/quote]
And why is that? Why are hospitals not subject to the kind of competition that wouldn't allow any other sector to get away with charging whatever they want?

I believe there are two reasons. First, there is no free entry to the hospital business. In most states one needs a license to open a hospital that can effectively be vetoed by other area hospitals.

Second, the tax deductibility of employer-provided insurance distorts the entire system. It makes it economically preferable for people to purchase pre-paid health plans which are only "insurance" by name.

The result is that very few people actually pay for their medical care, and thus the most basic check on excessive costs is eliminated.

[Phred]

The result is that very few people actually pay for their medical care, and thus the most basic check on excessive costs is eliminated.

Exactly. Yet even a cursory glance at a graph of the price over time of medical procedures rarely if ever covered by insurance such as LASIK type eye surgery and cosmetic surgery shows them becoming ever less expensive.

Probably just a coincidence.

The simple reality is anybody who says American health care is the best in the world is either a fool or simply got lucky and has great insurance…

So Pants-of-dog was being foolish when he said --

This is just as I have been saying: if you have the money for top notch care, the US is the best.

No honest debater can deny that the quality of care available in the US is the best there is. All an honest debater can do is to accurately point out that in the US, you can't count on your government to pay all your medical bills (in actual fact, you can't count on any government in the world to pay all your medical bills, but let's set that aside for the moment). For most Americans for most of their lives for most medical conditions, they will have to rely on someone other than government to settle up their unpaid medical bills (be that their own bank account, their insurance company, family, friends, charity, union medical fund, whatever) or they will have to stiff their medical creditors and suffer whatever unpleasant consequences may follow from that default.

That's the tradeoff. That's TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) in action. That's the salesman's "pick any two out of three" iron law of economics as it plays out in the field of medicine. The US provides the best medical outcomes. And it charges the most to do so.




Phred