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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14354378
We can debate, explicate, advocate till we are blue in the face but no one who wants to believe in something other will ever be persuaded until they can see a working example. Let's make a sovereign anarcho-capitalist zone somewhere. Find some unused and preferably unclaimed land and homestead it. I'm up for it. How could we get something like this started?
#14354399
Voluntarism wrote:The seasteaders are onto it

Hopefully will be able to see something viable and affordable within my lifetime.

See for example The Seasteading Institute's floating city project. There are a variety of others focussing on using old liners, oil tankers, oil platforms etc.

Seasteading, how about spacesteading? I don't doubt that given enough time some freedom seekers will escape the state either by going to sea or even the ultimate escape into space (I'd like to see those statist monkeys try to boss me around and rob me out there!). But terra firma is still the most feasible and cheapest site. Contrary to the hysteria spouted by the "too many people" gang, the land on this planet is still mostly empty of people. I wish all the luck in the world to the seasteaders and the spacesteaders but for now I'd be aiming for something a bit more down to earth (pun intended).
#14355749
There are attempts to set up "free cities" as well. Seasteading is hopeful because it strikes a balance by being technologically and economically-feasible (perhaps, just) and occupying areas not currently claimed by any government (although the US government does feel itself free to enforce its laws, especially drug laws, anywhere on the planet).
#14355767
that's the problem, sooner or later they will be declared terrorists and have democracy imposed...
#14355786
I second the outer space proposal. Alternatively, a nice big city in the middle of the sea would make great target practice for the Royal Navy's T-45s and attack submarines.
#14355818
An-capitalism is a complete non-starter anyway. Firstly on the grounds of being anarchist; anarchism is an absolutist unreachable construct. Secondly for being "capitalist", or at least in any large scale application; capitalism creates oligopolies and monopolies in markets with high barriers to entry and exit, and high dependance of the populace on the product. Such markets create the conditions whereby people desire to regulate them. A seastead is your best shot for an-capitalism, but everyone spitefully hates you just to be mean, so the an-capitalism would probably have to devolve into an insular nationalist state in order to martial protection for itself and root out infiltrators.

Only libertarianism relative to today's conditions can be achieved, and it can only be achieved through material technological developments that give people alternate means of subsistence, allowing bottom up regulation by making the market subservient to an enfranchised and self/community-sufficient populace. You can't reach all positions from anywhere. Things materially have their possible time.
#14355829
I've been tellin' you buggers for years...

...if you don't like the rules of the society you're in, then bugger off somewhere else!

At last, you seem to be gettin' round to it!

[/leg-pullin']
#14355831
Technology wrote:An-capitalism is a complete non-starter anyway. Firstly on the grounds of being anarchist; anarchism is an absolutist unreachable construct.

By that token anything is an absolutist unreachable construct. Liberal democracy is a complete non-starter if anyone doesn't vote or even a sizable minority don't vote and what if the majority don't vote (as quite often happens). What if they can vote for what colour ribbon they wear but not whether or not they want to be forced to buy dogpoop for 40% of their income, is that a non-starter?
Technology wrote:Secondly for being "capitalist", or at least in any large scale application; capitalism creates oligopolies and monopolies in markets with high barriers to entry and exit, and high dependance of the populace on the product.

No it doesn't require high barriers to entry and exit, you have it backwards, some kinds of activity naturally are hard to do without first throwing a lot of capital at it but that is a consequence of natural conditions not a requirement arbitrarily set by some mythical sky king. In any case a high capital investment can be made by many small investors just as easily a few big ones.
Technology wrote:Such markets create the conditions whereby people desire to regulate them.
No scammers dupe people into giving up their own liberty and property on the basis of a lie that they are somehow being cheated by people earning an honest living. Socialism in a nutshell.
Technology wrote:A seastead is your best shot for an-capitalism, but everyone spitefully hates you just to be mean, so the an-capitalism would probably have to devolve into an insular nationalist state in order to martial protection for itself and root out infiltrators.

Possibly.
Technology wrote:Only libertarianism relative to today's conditions can be achieved, and it can only be achieved through material technological developments that give people alternate means of subsistence, allowing bottom up regulation by making the market subservient to an enfranchised and self/community-sufficient populace. You can't reach all positions from anywhere. Things materially have their possible time.

The market is the people. Realise that anyone who tells you that "the market" is an enemy or a wild beast that must to be tamed or a monster is actually telling you that YOU are an enemy, a wild beast that must be tamed and a monster.
#14355849
taxizen wrote:By that token anything is an absolutist unreachable construct. Liberal democracy is a complete non-starter if anyone doesn't vote or even a sizable minority don't vote and what if the majority don't vote (as quite often happens). What if they can vote for what colour ribbon they wear but not whether or not they want to be forced to buy dogpoop for 40% of their income, is that a non-starter?


Some things aren't absolutist because they don't try to reduce current and consistent historical properties of reality to nothing. Liberal-democracy is not absolutist because all it does is try to vary the mix of things which have never been observed not to exist. Anarchism is absolutist (much like communism really) because it goes as far to say that coercive hierarchy can be eliminated, in spite of any thought experiment you can make up leaving incentives for such coercion. Libertarianism as a larger category is not absolutist by contrast, because it simply includes the sets of political ideologies which aim to reduce coercive hierarchy (though anarchism is a sub-category).

taxizen wrote:No it doesn't require high barriers to entry and exit, you have it backwards, some kinds of activity naturally are hard to do without first throwing a lot of capital at it but that is a consequence of natural conditions not a requirement arbitrarily set by some mythical sky king. In any case a high capital investment can be made by many small investors just as easily a few big ones.


Those natural conditions ensure a convergence on just a few big firms owning most of that particular market. This market structure is sometimes called oligopoly by economists, or to greater extremes; monopoly. Barriers to entry can include loaning, because firms which are already big have passed some measures of success, so would be trusted more by lending institutions than start-ups, which are seen as riskier. Other barriers to entry are created by economies of scale, such as bulk buying. These things allow firms which are already big to get even bigger and gobble up more of the market.

This exposes the fundamental problem with Austrian economics; it acts like there's just one natural market structure, that of perfect competition, and all the other market structures contain purely governmental barriers, rather than intrinsic ones. Austrian economics is most applicable in the market structure of monopolistic competition (Not to be confused with monopoly. Economists are weird with naming things), where barriers to entry and exit are low, there is good market knowledge, and elastic demand to the products being produced.

The Austrian argument against monopolies centers around the idea that if one firm is earning supernormal profits (average revenue above average cost), other firms will be attracted into the market and compete away the advantage, until the market contains lots of smaller firms earning normal profits (AR=AC). The fatal flaw in this notion is that it only applies when firms can easily enter and exit markets, and natural barriers to entry and barriers to exit (sunk costs) don't apply in the free market. If we know that they do, then the Austrian argument is reduced to a fair argument for market forces left alone in the appropriate market structure, but not in all markets within the economy, and therefore can't be used to support "Utopian Capitalist" anarchy.


taxizen wrote:Possibly.


Sincerely: my feels.


taxizen wrote:The market is the people. Realise that anyone who tells you that "the market" is an enemy or a wild beast that must to be tamed or a monster is actually telling you that YOU are an enemy, a wild beast that must be tamed and a monster.


The market is some people over here doing one thing, other people over there doing something else. If one person gobbles up all the resource control, they might not be obvious aggressors, but if the economy is composed of a mass proletariat, dispossessed of means of subsistence, then they are beholden to the monopolists dictatorship over that capital, and the freedom they have, is the freedom to choose between accepting the monopolists terms or starving/other serious ailment for lack of their own productive land (and technology).

The conditions which are best for people to be amiable to others rights, are those where each person can possess that which can support their life without desperate struggle. If the populace is instead dispossessed of such things, and it is given that markets can indeed produce monopolies as shown, any extreme libertarian concept will not be stable due to the extreme class conflict created by the masses being dependent on the decisions of an elite few over how they will survive. This is true for market actors as surely as it is for government ones.

The more dispossed conditions are evident, the more coercion there will intrinsically be. We shouldn't be surprised, in the unlikely event of the mass populace accepting anarcho-capitalism, and its theory consequently being proven wrong, to see the reaction lead eventually, perhaps inevitably, to a socialist dictatorship.
#14355989
The Immortal Goon wrote:Sounds like a good idea, but only if you completely make sure that when things fail miserably no government coercively rescues you.
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Is that "rescue" as in a communist style euphemism for abducted, tortured and sent to a salt mine?
#14356008
Eran wrote:There are attempts to set up "free cities" as well. Seasteading is hopeful because it strikes a balance by being technologically and economically-feasible (perhaps, just) and occupying areas not currently claimed by any government (although the US government does feel itself free to enforce its laws, especially drug laws, anywhere on the planet).

Just a thought but what about something like the FreeState Project except targeting somewhere outside of a big super state. For those that don't know the Free State Project aims to create a free state by means of a kind of inverted grassroot gerrymandering. They pick a state that already has a highly libertarian culture / legal framework and has a small population and invite as many freedom seekers as they can to move there with the expectation that they will, once there, actively campaign through whatever legislative and democratic institutions to further roll back the powers of the state over people. The Freestate project picked New Hampshire in the US which no doubt was the optimal choice for anywhere within the US federal domain but therein I think lies a weakness. Whatever they manage to achieve with New Hampshire's state law they will still be within the legal framework of the Federal US government and so short of succession they are going to hit some pretty hard limits to what they can achieve.
Looking at europe we also have a big oppressive superstate, the EU, but it is thus far pretty incomplete: there are lots of countries still outside of it. One of them is Switzerland. Switzerland is rather like New Hampshire possessed with a relatively highly libertarian culture / legal framework and is fairly small. Better yet Switzerland's governance is highly decentralised with governance distributed amongst many highly independent cantons. So we could target for inverted grassroot gerrymandering not just switzerland as a whole but even concentrate further on a particular canton in Switzerland for maximum impact.
#14356011
I seem to remember a book by Tom Woods (called "nullification", I think) that said US States had the power under the constitution to nullify any Federal law they wanted (but historically have accepted many spheres of Fed law as the norm).
#14356013
Voluntarism wrote:I seem to remember a book by Tom Woods (called "nullification", I think) that said US States had the power under the constitution to nullify any Federal law they wanted (but historically have accepted many spheres of Fed law as the norm).

What did GWB say about the constitution? What do ATF stormtroopers care about the constitution? Tom Woods may be right but I wouldn't be too sure it will matter much if the Washington mob want their way and are prepared to break some faces to get it.

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