[ArtAllm]

History seems to be going backwards. Was there some sort of polarity reversal on the axis of time that nobody noticed....?

The creation of Israel reversed the history more than 2000 years backwards.

I think that we shall call GB Nordmark in Germany.

[Potemkin]

I think that we shall call GB Nordmark in Germany.

I'd be okay with that, so long as the Holy Roman Emperor appoints me as Margrave of the Nordmark, for life.

[Frollein]

Why not just Anglia, since we exported out tribe there?

While we're reversing history, I want Prussia back.

[ArtAllm]

This is on a much larger scale, and the west heartily props up this bat shit regime of extremists.

Western media has demoniesed Russia and Russians for such a long time, that it is impossible to persuade the Western audience, that Russians are not Russians, and the Ukrainians are the real Russians.

Who knows the history of Russia can understand that this demonisation of Russians was not in the interest of Ukrainians, because Ukrainians call themselves Russians.

Russians and Ukrainians know this problem:

Петрушка украл у нас наше генетическое название современной Украины. Сегодня речь идет о восстановлении государства, наследницы славянской Руси – Великой Скифии.

(Олег Соскин.)

http://www.vz.ru/politics/2011/7/15/507300.print.html

Translation:
Peter [Peter the Great) stole from us our genetic name of the modern Ukraine. Today we are talking about the restoration of the state, the heiress of the Slavic Rus - Great Scythia

Everybody knows that the pro-Russian Ukrainians are bad guys, so how can all Ukrainians be Russians, speak bad guys?

Ukrainians are not happy with the name "Ukraine", because this means "Marginland" or "Province".

But why not revive the old Khazaria? That state is even older, than the Rus, they had a lot of Synagogues in Kiev before Normans converted the Slavs to Christianity.

Maybe Israel will support the idea of reviving the old Khazaria?

[Rei Murasame]

I've been derisively referring to the Russian Federation by the name of its core ruling district 'Muscovy', for years now. The Ukrainians have totally stolen this idea from me, and I want royalties.

[ArtAllm]

I've been derisively referring to the Russian Federation by the name of its core ruling district 'Muscovy', for years now. The Ukrainians have totally stolen this idea from me, and I want royalties.

The term "Rus" was derived from the name of a Scandinavian tribe, not from any particular territory.

The first residence of the Rus was Novgorod, then the Rus moved to Kiev.

The Rurikids were the dynasty that had the copyright to this name.

After the Rurikids moved their residence to Moscow, they expanded the territory of Rus, that is all.

After that Peter the Great moved the residence to Sankt Petersburg.

The Russian Tsars called themselves: Царь и великий князь Всея Руси, и Малая, и Белая, и Великая

King and Emperor of all Russia, Minor (Today Ukrain), White (Today Belorussa) and Grand Russia (today the Russian Federation).

BTW, "White Russia" refers to the landscape, not to the skin colour of the inhabitants of Belarus.

The claim of today Ukrainian nationalists is idiotic.

The legitimate rulers of Russia decided to move their capital to Moscow and then to Sankt Petersburg, and they had the right to do that.

Small/Minor Russia became a province of All Russia (Всея Руси), because peasants are not asked when the Rulers decide to shift their residence.

Ukraine can call itself "Small Russia" or "Minor Russia" (this was the accepted name of this province in all European languages before the collapse of the Tsarist Russia), or Ukraine can call itself "Khazaria" or "Skythia".

But it would be wise if they just accepted the name they already have: Ukraine (speak Province).

Why Small Russia became a province?

Well, because the old Russian nobility moved to the new residence in Moscow and then to Sankt Petersburg, and the remaining russian peasants did not care a lot about the name of their province. This territory was a province for the Polish-Lithuanian Rulers, too.

[Albert]

Fucking Ukrainian peasants I swear. To any person who know the region very well would know 'Ukrainian nationalism' is a complete fucking joke. Their modern 'nationalism' is pretty much a fabrication, pushed on by the state after Soviet Union disintegrated. With the convulsive narrative that "Russia is the bad boy oppressor and we are actually the real Russians and not the mongoloid losers in Moscow." They fed this bullshit in schools to their young for about 25 years now. Yet anyone who is intelligent enough to inform themselves of real history in Ukraine, outside of the elementary school curriculum, knows the narrative is nonsense.

That is why the first thing people in Crimea did was to burn all "the history books" in demonstration. But even before that they were burning them already.
http://www.voanews.com/content/book-burning-in-ukraine-stokes-controversy-about-history-88239147/169847.html

Why not just Anglia, since we exported out tribe there?

Actually Russians refer to England as Anglia.

And I think the French world for Germany, Allemagne, is after the German tribe of Alemanni. Probably because Franks are of German heritage themselves?

[noemon]

Actually Russians refer to England as Anglia

Greeks call:

England: Anglia
Germany: Germania
France: Gallia
Spain: Iberia
Italy: Italia
Netherlands: Ollandia
Scotland: Skotia
Russia: Rossia
FYROM: Skopia
Serbia: Servia
Bulgaria: Vulgaria
Wales: Oualia.
Ireland: Irlandia
Greece: Ellas
GB: Megali Vretania

[Frollein]

And I think the French world for Germany, Allemagne, is after the German tribe of Alemanni. Probably because Franks are of German heritage themselves?

I think it's more because each of our neighbours called us by the name of the tribe they met first: for example, the Finns call us Saksa.

This region was traditionally considered by the Romans to be the region the real Germans (with a bad reputation) came from. The Saxons were considered by Charlemagne, and some historians, to be especially war-like and ferocious.

Personally, I like the Nahuatl one: Teutōtitlan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany

[Igor Antunov]

The term "Rus" was derived from the name of a Scandinavian tribe, not from any particular territory.

The first residence of the Rus was Novgorod, then the Rus moved to Kiev.

The Rurikids were the dynasty that had the copyright to this name.

After the Rurikids moved their residence to Moscow, they expanded the territory of Rus, that is all.

After that Peter the Great moved the residence to Sankt Petersburg.

The Russian Tsars called themselves: Царь и великий князь Всея Руси, и Малая, и Белая, и Великая

King and Emperor of all Russia, Minor (Today Ukrain), White (Today Belorussa) and Grand Russia (today the Russian Federation).

BTW, "White Russia" refers to the landscape, not to the skin colour of the inhabitants of Belarus.

The claim of today Ukrainian nationalists is idiotic.

The legitimate rulers of Russia decided to move their capital to Moscow and then to Sankt Petersburg, and they had the right to do that.

Small/Minor Russia became a province of All Russia (Всея Руси), because peasants are not asked when the Rulers decide to shift their residence.

Ukraine can call itself "Small Russia" or "Minor Russia" (this was the accepted name of this province in all European languages before the collapse of the Tsarist Russia), or Ukraine can call itself "Khazaria" or "Skythia".

But it would be wise if they just accepted the name they already have: Ukraine (speak Province).

Why Small Russia became a province?

Well, because the old Russian nobility moved to the new residence in Moscow and then to Sankt Petersburg, and the remaining russian peasants did not care a lot about the name of their province. This territory was a province for the Polish-Lithuanian Rulers, too.

This needs to be inscribed on a plaque and sent to outer space. Word for word. /Thread.

[pikachu]

The Ukrainian claim to the entirety of the Kievan Rus history seems to be based on the fact that they have Kiev. So apparently the historical continuity can be measured by sheer proximity to capital cities. So for example, Maryland is the single most American state in all of America, while Hawaii - the most un-American. New Jersey is automatically more American than Kentucky, even though the population of the first is almost entirely immigrant from the 18th and 19th centuries, while the latter is still largely English. I wonder why nobody is actually using these classifications to claim leadership rights...

If anything, Russia has a much longer history of political independence than Ukraine, as such it is less subject to foreign influence and hence should probably be considered a better successor to the original Rus. There weren't any attempts to Lithuanize, Polonize, Catholicize, or otherwise lead Russia astray from its original identity as happened with Ukraine. The Republics of Pskov and Novgorod (now in northern Russia), were never actually under non-Russian rule at all, even the Mongols didn't get that far north. And Novgorod also happens to be the original capital of Rus, as previously mentioned.

Still, unlike Ukraine, the Russian nationalists never seem to dismiss Ukraine as non-Slavic or as fake successors to Rus.
The Russian position is: we are both successors to the Rus state, so we have a shared and unique history and we should be together
The Ukrainian position is: we are the only successor to Rus because we have Kiev, and you should give us money and fuck off.

[ArtAllm]

The Ukrainian claim to the entirety of the Kievan Rus history seems to be based on the fact that they have Kiev.

Well, in Kiev hardly anybody can call the modern Ukrainian language his native language.
And Ukraine was called "Small Russia" before the Bolsheviks created a state, called Ukraine.

The old Russian language, which is still used in the Liturgy, is more similar to the modern Russian, than to the modern Ukrainian, which was heavily influenced by the Polish language.

And the Crimean Peninsula and the New Russia were never part of the Kievan Rus.

I think that the claims of Ukrainian nationalists, who are mostly Catholics (the Old Rus was Orthodox) are just idiotic and ludicrous.

[Albert]

If anything, Russia has a much longer history of political independence than Ukraine, as such it is less subject to foreign influence and hence should probably be considered a better successor to the original Rus. There weren't any attempts to Lithuanize, Polonize, Catholicize, or otherwise lead Russia astray from its original identity as happened with Ukraine. The Republics of Pskov and Novgorod (now in northern Russia), were never actually under non-Russian rule at all, even the Mongols didn't get that far north. And Novgorod also happens to be the original capital of Rus, as previously mentioned.

North eastern Russian states were never directly ruled by the Mongols. There were under 'Mongol Yoke' or 'Tatar Yoke' as it know in Russia. Forced to pay tribute to the Mongol Khan, and if there was ever a serious political situation or dispute they were summoned to the Sarai, capital of Golden Horde.

The Republics of Novgorod and Pskov did escape the Mongolian invasion though. As far as I remember reading, Mongols turned around before capturing Novgorod because winter ended, and this gave more favourable position to the defenders with rivers and marshes as such become unfrozen. So Mongol cavalry could not take advantage of their primary strength anymore. After that they never attempted to seriously invade that far north.

The about 250 years of Mongol Yoke ended by Ivan III. At 'Great stand on the Ugra river' in 1480, when Duchy of Moscow refused to pay tribute to the Mongols.

Mongols are also heavily responsible for decline of Kiev, as they sacked and ruined the city, which after came to be ruled by Lithuania.

[ThirdTerm]

The term "Rus" was derived from the name of a Scandinavian tribe, not from any particular territory.

Rurik who founded the Rurik Dynasty, which ruled Kievan Rus, is believed to be of Viking descent but his descendants' genetic profile is very similar to that of the modern-day Russians. The Rurik clan belonged to two main Y-DNA haplogroups N1c1 and R1a1 (24%). N1c1 is not widely found in Scandinavian countries except for Finland and its frequencies are 30% in northern Russia and 15% in central Russia. Only 6% of the Rurik clan had the Scandinavian haplogroup I, which is the genetic signature of Scandinavian ancestry. According to the 12th century Kievan Primary Chronicle, a group of Varangians known as the Rus' settled in Novgorod in 862 under the leadership of Rurik but the excavated objects were mostly of Finno-Ugric and Slavic origin dated to the mid-8th century, a century before the Rus' people's supposed arrival to Novgorod. The chronicle's historical narrative may have been political propaganda to embellish the dynasty's ethnic roots in the eyes of the subject people as the Rurik clan may have looked slightly Asiatic with N1c1.

According to the Primary Chronicle, Rurik was one of the Rus, a Varangian tribe likened by the chronicler to Danes, Swedes, Angles, and Gotlanders. In the 20th century, archaeologists partly corroborated the chronicle's version of events,[1][clarification needed] but mostly the excavations denied most of the chronicle's data about Rurik's arrival when it was apparent that the old settlement stretched to the mid-8th century and the excavated objects were mostly of Finno-Ugric and Slavic origin, dated to the mid-8th century, which showed the settlement was not Scandinavian from the beginning.[2]

According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants.[6] Contrary to the Norman theory of the origin of the Kievan Rus' state, N1c1 is not widely found in Scandinavian countries, but is overwhelmingly found among Baltic and Finnish ethnicities. The N1c1 haplotype possess the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia.[citation needed] The closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype are found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

It was largely a summary of the Wikipedia article above expect for the last portion and I also referenced the Russian language page on Rurik, concerning haplogroup frequencies of the Rurik clan. Haplogroup I is strongly associated with Norse migrations to the British Isles and Haplogroup R1a1 is the main Slavic haplogroup (46% in Russia).

I2b2 is a very rare subclade of Haplogroup I and was only discovered in May 2005. It is purely European. There is still much to discover about it, but its story is being advanced by gifted hobbyists such as Hans de Beule who has published a number of articles on the wanderings of I2b2 people. Haplogroup I was one of the earliest groups to settle on the continent around 40,000 years ago. Today I2b2 is thinly spread over Europe but its frequency is highest in the Upper Rhine region of Germany, making it a likely point of origin around 6-7,000 years ago. Given its subsequent spread across Europe over the millenia, it is entirely possible that I2b2 people moved northwards into Denmark and possibly southern Norway to eventually become Vikings. Certainly, there were complex movements of peoples all over the Continent over this period, complicating the DNA picture considerably.

Scandinavian communities in northern England and Ireland merged with the local populations, as evidenced by the modern connection between Danish and German I2b2 samples with northern English and Irish ones, suggesting that some I2b2s mingled with north German and Scandinavian populations and migrated to England and Ireland as Vikings. The impact on culture and language of this Anglo-Scandinavian assimilation in northern England is still felt to this day, particularly in the distinctive dialects of English spoken in the north, which can still be unintelligible to people from the south!

This map, courtesy of Worldnames showing the modern distribution of people with the surname Rimmer in northwest Europe supports this. It shows an unusually high concentration in west Lancashire, as well as a moderate frequency in Denmark (and a very low frequency in Norway and Sweden). A prehistoric origin, or an Anglo-Saxon origin, would explain a more uniform frequency of I2b2s from the continent across the length and breadth of England, but does less to explain the later presence of a high concentration of people with a common surname in such a localised area.
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/y-dna-te ... viking-ok/

[noemon]

ThirdTerm's non-sense is intolerable.

What if the Rus' were Varangian Vikings and Asiatic looking at the same time?

What if the Rus' were Viking and Slavic at the same time?

Why would anyone embellish a story by choosing to pretend to be some Viking villager from neverland? The Vikings adopted Greco-Roman customs and styled themselves with foreign garb and names to such an extent that laws had to be made to prevent Viking immigrants from going South, especially the Rus' who were among the first to do so?

The Rus' provided the earliest members of the Varangian Guard. They were in Byzantine service from as early as 874. The Guard was first formally constituted under Emperor Basil II in 988, following the Christianization of Kievan Rus' by Vladimir I of Kiev. Vladimir, who had recently usurped power in Kiev with an army of Varangian warriors, sent 6,000 men to Basil as part of a military assistance agreement.[2][3][4] Basil's distrust of the native Byzantine guardsmen, whose loyalties often shifted with fatal consequences, as well as the proven loyalty of the Varangians, many of whom had previously served in Byzantium, led the Emperor to employ them as his personal guardsmen.
Immigrants from Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland kept a predominantly Norse cast to the organization until the late 11th century. In these years, Scandinavian men left to enlist in the Byzantine Varangian Guard in such numbers that a medieval Swedish law from Västergötland declared no one could inherit while staying in Greece—the then Scandinavian term for the Byzantine Empire—to stop the emigration.[5] Especially as two other European courts simultaneously also recruited Scandinavians:[6] Kievan Rus' c. 980–1060 and London 1018–1066 (the Þingalið).[6]

Composed primarily of Norsemen and Rus for the first 100 years, the Guard began to see increased inclusion of Anglo-Saxons after the Norman conquest of England. By the time of the Emperor Alexios Komnenos in the late 11th century, the Varangian Guard was largely recruited from Anglo-Saxons and "others who had suffered at the hands of the Vikings and their cousins the Normans". The Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic peoples shared with the Vikings a tradition of faithful (to death if necessary) oath-bound service, and after the Norman invasion of England there were many fighting men who had lost their lands and former masters and looked for a living elsewhere.

The Varangian Guard not only provided security for the Byzantine Emperors, but also participated in many wars, often playing a decisive role, since they were usually deployed at critical moments of a battle. By the late 13th century Varangians were mostly ethnically assimilated by Byzantine Greeks, though the Guard operated until at least mid-14th century. In 1400 there were still some people identifying themselves as "Varangians" in Constantinople.

What is this dna non-sense and how do you separate Slavic DNA from Viking DNA?

[Albert]

Why are you so offended at what third-term had written? She just wrote about genetics. As far as I know although there is Norse blood in Russian people, most of their genetic makeup is Slavic and surprisingly the second largest genetic similarity is with Finnish-Ugric people. I was less surprised by this is when I met few Finish people and thinking they were Russian at first. I remember asking this girl where she is from, who I felt was sure Russian, when she replied that she was Finnish, I was really surprised.

The purest Slavs are Polish and second to them Ukrainians.

[noemon]

The "purest" Slavs, your Finnish anecdote of a Finn being Russian-looking.

Dear god.

She created a theory that the Primary Chronicle invented a story because her imaginative genetics that she pulled out of a shitty website and which have no basis on anything and this nothingness does not match the history and so we need to reinvent history to match the imagination as imagined by who?. This is

History cannot be re-written to accommodate purely arbitrary genetic markers and wishful thinking. Genetics are ok in so far as they are used for personal research into ones own genes not when they are used to isolate a marker in a population and then render that marker into the holy grail, what if that marker was not present in Rurik because Rurik might have been a bastard from a Gypsie wonderer? What of all the bastards that followed? Tell me now that in a population of 150 something million there are no bastards, what if the bastards are more than the pure ones? How does one define the 2? How the bloody fuck does one isolate and separate Vikings and Russians who for all intents and purposes look absolutely identical? How does one separate the genes of the British? The genes of the Greeks? Who have assimilated Vikings, Armenians, Jews, Serbs? Which of these markers is the quintessentially "Greek" one?

These kind of non-sense do not pass the first level of scrutiny let alone question the historical record.

There are continuous nations, but this continuity is a continuity in the continuous identification of an ethnic-body through its organic literature and song. So if a community maintains its historical memory that community is a continuous community regardless of what women the tribal fathers choose to have children with as long as the children understand into which community they belong to. After all if you cannot remember what you actually are because your parents forgot to tell you or because you would prefer to be something other than what they told you, then what does it even matter, and how the bloody fuck can you guess otherwise? There is continuity in memory. And we cannot bargain our memory because of bloody fashion statements and genetic hipsterism, that would make one lose the continuity by defying the memory.

[ThirdTerm]

Japan's imperial family came up with manufactured accounts of their family history, which were compiled into the two chronicles that pushed the year of the country's founding back to 660 BC. The imperial family still refuses to have their ancestors' graves scientifically tested, fearing that betraying their true ethnic origins would undermine the legitimacy of the imperial household in the eyes of the Japanese public. I suspect that the Rurik clan is also culpable of the same offence, which is becoming clear with recent archaeological evidence.

Perhaps genetic discrepancy of Rurik can be explained that Vikings invaders were few in number, mostly men, therefore they quickly mixed with local slav populace. Vikings when they conquered land mostly retained position of overlords, living of other peoples labour and only concerning themselves with warfare and keeping their position.

It's generally assumed that the ancient Slavs were a backward people who could not establish their own kingdom but the Pontic steppe was at the centre of the Yamna culture, which influenced other cultures in South Asia and Central Asia. The idea that the Slavs were conquered by the Vikings is stereotypical and Rurik was probably a local warlord from the area who assumed the Viking identity through cultural influences from Scandinavia. Some Viking settlers may have been in the region as noble guests and artisans but the ruling class was purely Slavic in origin.

Figure 1: Genetic structure of ancient Europe
We investigated the temporal stratigraphy of CHG influence by comparing these data to previously published ancient genomes. We find that CHG, or a population close to them, contributed to the genetic makeup of individuals from the Yamnaya culture, which have been implicated as vectors for the profound influx of Pontic steppe ancestry that spread westwards into Europe and east into central Asia with metallurgy, horseriding and probably Indo-European languages in the third millenium BC5, 7. CHG ancestry in these groups is supported by ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1b) and admixture f3-statistics14, 25 (Fig. 5), which best describe the Yamnaya as a mix of CHG and Eastern European hunter-gatherers. The Yamnaya were semi-nomadic pastoralists, mainly dependent on stock-keeping but with some evidence for agriculture, including incorporation of a plow into one burial26. As such it is interesting that they lack an ancestral coefficient of the EF genome (Fig. 1b), which permeates through western European Neolithic and subsequent agricultural populations. During the Early Bronze Age, the Caucasus was in communication with the steppe, particularly via the Maikop culture27, which emerged in the first-half of the fourth millennium BC. The Maikop culture predated and, possibly with earlier southern influences, contributed to the formation of the adjacent Yamnaya culture that emerged further to the north and may be a candidate for the transmission of CHG ancestry. In the ADMIXTURE analysis of later ancient genomes (Fig. 1b) the Caucasus component gives a marker for the extension of Yamnaya admixture, with substantial contribution to both western and eastern Bronze Age samples. However, this is not completely coincident with metallurgy; Copper Age genomes from Northern Italy and Hungary show no contribution; neither does the earlier of two Hungarian Bronze Age individuals.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15111 ... s9912.html

[Albert]

Perhaps genetic discrepancy of Rurik can be explained that Vikings invaders were few in number, mostly men, therefore they quickly mixed with local slav populace. Vikings when they conquered land mostly retained position of overlords, living of other peoples labour and only concerning themselves with warfare and keeping their position.

[noemon]

Japan's imperial family came up with manufactured accounts of their family history, which were compiled into the two chronicles that pushed the year of the country's founding back to 660 BC. The imperial family still refuses to have their ancestors' graves scientifically tested, fearing that betraying their true ethnic origins would undermine the legitimacy of the imperial household in the eyes of the Japanese public. I suspect that the Rurik clan is also culpable of the same offence, which is becoming clear with recent archaeological evidence.

Conspiratorial non-sense that no Emperor would deign so low to honour by unearthing his/her ancestors for the sake of some idiots and their conspiracies.

It's generally assumed that the ancient Slavs were a backward people who could not establish their own kingdom but the Pontic steppe was at the centre of the Yamna culture, which influenced other cultures in South Asia and Central Asia. The idea that the Slavs were conquered by the Vikings is stereotypical and Rurik was probably a local warlord from the area who assumed the Viking identity through cultural influences from Scandinavia. Some Viking settlers may have been in the region as noble guests and artisans but the ruling class was purely Slavic in origin.

The Rus' were Varangians, they were termed as such by the Greeks and the Greeks have absolutely no reason to lie for anything, if the genetics are indeed similar(which is a big if) perhaps you should consider the Slavs and the Vikings being one and the same. They look identical anyway.