[Rich]

Jefferson did not support the rights of the French and Spanish colonists of Louisiana to self determination. If George III or the British parliament had wanted to sell off the British American colonies, Jefferson would have responded that they weren't Britain’s to sell.

[The Immortal Goon]

Jefferson did not support the rights of the French and Spanish colonists of Louisiana to self determination.

Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists.

[SolarCross]

He believes it, and he is really hopeless. That "de-Nazification" programme we imposed on Germany after the War worked rather too well. With typical Germanic earnestness and thoroughness, they believed what we told them and converted themselves into what we see today - suicidally naive and idealistic pussies. Atlantis is a rather extreme case, since he is actually a bigoted German nationalist who has somehow convinced himself that he's a noble-hearted internationalist who desires only peace and co-existence with all the peoples of the Earth. Except the British and the Americans, of course, who are evil imperialists who must be cast into the outer darkness. His cognitive dissonance makes him a rather comical figure, but he's a symptom of a much more serious malaise in the German national psyche. We will probably live to see the German nation commit an "exquisite suicide", to use noir's perceptive phrase.

That is an interesting and plausible narrative of yours which makes sense of attitudes I would otherwise find baffling. There is I think some hope for the Germans though, for if Atlantis is a classic case of internalised de-Nazification then let us note that Atlantis is of a certain special generation* that was fed national shame almost with his mother's milk. We have however on pofo some younger Germans the exemplar being Frau Frollein who I would say in contrast seems an exceedingly well balanced and sensible person with a healthy sense of self-preservation. Whether the German nation commits an "exquisite suicide" will hang on which of these generations carries the course of the nation and there is hope for Germany in that the younger generation will outlast the older one.

*in another thread Atlantis mentioned visiting East Germany before the wall came down which would make him at least 50 years of age and possibly quite a bit older.

[Atlantis]

What Germans, (like most people, but it doesn't matter as much to non Germans) fail to grasp is the difference between Nazi Germany and America:

Germans don't compare the US with the Nazis. Therefore, the difference you are trying to make out in this comparison has no relation to the Germans. It is entirely a US fringe element.

Everyone gained form the war except the Germans. The Poles, the Lithuanians, The Czechs all gained territory at the expense of the Germans. The British got their finest hour.

It is impossible to see WWII without WWI; therefore the greatest losers of the world wars are (in this order):

- the Ottoman empire (of which the pain continues into the present)
- the Austrio-Hungarian empire
- the British empire
- the French empire
- the German empire

It beats me how the losers can present the power politics that led to these losses as successful politics.

It seems to me that it is, in fact, your good self who tends to rely on only a single point of view and who refuses to accept the validity of any opposing viewpoints.

Thankfully, I have a single view since I'm not a split personality; however, that doesn't mean different points of views haven't gone into the making of that view. I always welcome opposing views if they are based on reason. If I can tell from experience that something is obvious nonsense I don't see why I should have to waste my time explaining over and over why something is obvious nonsense.

And please spare us your public psychoanalysis in the future. Not everybody shares your obsession of washing your dirty linen in public.

We have however on pofo some younger Germans the exemplar being Frau Frollein who I would say in contrast seems an exceedingly well balanced and sensible person with a healthy sense of self-preservation.

You, like Pot, again prove my point that you are living in a bubble in which you cannot even understand present day Germany. Even Frollein wouldn't claim that s/he expresses more than an extreme fringe element which thankfully has nothign to do with mainstream opinion.

That you lecture me about the SU or the cold war which I have experience but not you is rather presumptuous. I won't correct that misconceptions for the millionth time since you are obviously not interested in the facts. And you don't have to make insinuations about me to the forum, which is kind of rude. You can address me directly, I won't bite your head off.

*in another thread Atlantis mentioned visiting East Germany before the wall came down which would make him at least 50 years of age and possibly quite a bit older.

I can understand that to your copy-and-paste generation experience is a disadvantage.

PS: I take note of the fact that the growing ranks of closet imperialists are fast running out of arguments and need to resort to character assassination.

[SolarCross]

You, like Pot, again prove my point that you are living in a bubble in which you cannot even understand present day Germany. Even Frollein wouldn't claim that s/he expresses more than an extreme fringe element which thankfully has nothign to do with mainstream opinion.

Well of course I don't know very much about present day Germany or which opinions are mainstream there, that doesn't mean I am living in a bubble (whatever that means) it just means I am not German. If your assertion is true that Frollein is an extreme fringe whilst you represent the mainstream then that is a sad thing for Germany. Times change though, that which is an extreme fringe while one generation dominates may become the mainstream as the old generation passes away.

That you lecture me about the SU or the cold war which I have experience but not you is rather presumptuous. I won't correct that misconceptions for the millionth time since you are obviously not interested in the facts. And you don't have to make insinuations about me to the forum, which is kind of rude. You can address me directly, I won't bite your head off.

Perhaps that was a touch rude but I thought potemkin's impression was rather worth commenting on, sorry you had to be the subject of it.

I can understand that to your copy-and-paste generation experience is a disadvantage.

Experience like most things is a double edged sword; as much as it offers data from which useful information can be gathered it also shapes us emotionally and can lock us into a particular paradigm of thought.

PS: I take note of the fact that the growing ranks of closet imperialists are fast running out of arguments and need to resort to character assassination.

Well I am not a closet imperialist, I am out in the open on that one. I have made my argument, maybe I could make more but I hardly see the point since my argument stands victorious.