Global Warming... again - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Pollution, global warming, urbanisation etc.
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By David Henry
#117909
Sorry guys, but I'm leaving this thread.

IPCC report due 2006 :roll:

I couldn't be bothered wasting anymore time on fossil fool advocates.

http://www.roberthildebrand.com/theright/warming.html

Global Warming does not end in a question mark

A new study by the General Accounting Office on greenhouse gases predicts marked increases in emissions of greenhouse gases as well as the deadly pollutant mercury. The study, commissioned by the Senate, blamed the increases on the growing use of fossil fuels and the paucity of federal or state emission standards for power plants. Because an increase of greenhouse gases will increase global warming this is political matter of serious concern. President Bush seems inclined to do little and has backed out of the landmark Kyoto agreements, presumably to help his corporate backers. Furthermore, recent letters to the Tribune make light of global warming, even suggesting that global warming might be a good thing. Despite overwhelming evidence and general agreement among the scientific community, significant numbers of citizens and politicians do not take global warming seriously.

In large part, the lack of public seriousness was manufactured by special interest groups as part of a concerted effort by the polluting industries. Even though the topic of global warming had been seriously discussed among scientists since the middle 1950's, it wasn't until the testimony of Dr. James Hansen of NASA before a congressional committee in 1988 that it came to the public's attention. Soon afterwards, the Burson-Marsteller PR firm founded the Global Climate Coalition with the sole purpose of battling reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. The coalition received funding over the years from the likes of the American Petroleum Institute, Dow Chemical, Exxon, Union Carbide, most auto manufacturers, and many other industrial concerns. Estimates of the amount spent by the coalition exceed $100 million. They even bought the services of E. Bruce Harrison, who as a lobbyist for the pesticide industry in the 1960's, attacked Rachel Carson and her classic book, Silent Spring.

Other industry-funded lobby groups soon joined the fray and included the Information Council for the Environment, the American Energy Alliance, the Climate Council, the Global Climate Information Council, the Coalition for Vehicle Choice, the National Center for Public Policy Research, the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition and the American Policy Center. They pulled out all stops to convince the public that global warming is a controversial and disputed theory. In addition to publishing glossy pamphlets authored by pseudo-scientists, they allied themselves with property rights groups of the Wise Use movement, industry trade associations, and extremist groups that believe global warming is a UN plot to enslave the world. All in all, they were successful in creating a cloud of doubt among the public about global warming. In spite of industry PR, serious scientists are convinced by real data that the recent increases in temperature are related to greenhouse gases: it is only the general public that remains confused.

In order to ascertain whether the climate is warming, we need to understand past climates, called paleoclimates. Scientists use a wide variety of methods to understand ancient climates. These include tree-ring thickness, isotopic composition of ice as well as included bubbles and dust grains, Cd/Ca ratios and isotopic composition of shells, species assemblages, pollen analysis, and many others. From these sources scientists have created a pretty accurate picture of global climate going back at least as far as 100,000 years. In other words, we have an excellent basis upon which to evaluate recent climatic changes, and we know that the global climate is warming.

Although there is general agreement among the scientific community that global warming is real and especially strong during the past 20 years, opponents use previous climatic variations to suggest that we cannot tell that greenhouse gases are responsible for it. However, after years of intensive study, we do not know of any combination of natural mechanisms that can explain the phenomenon: it simply doesn't relate to natural factors. Instead, there is a clear relationship between the increase in greenhouse gases and global warming. The 2001 report of the Intergovernment Panel on Climate Change stated, "[t]here is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities".

A common misconception is that global warming will be a good thing, not only because people don't like being cold, but because we will be able to grow crops farther north. In part this might be true, but along with warmer weather come all kinds of other things -- often ignored -- like diseases and drought.

As northern areas and their surface waters warm there will be unwelcome invasions of new or exotic diseases and pests that will affect both humans and animals. Water-borne diseases such as cholera and schistosomiatris, as well as vector-borne diseases, such as malaria, yellow fever, dengue fever, and leishmaniasis, are likely to move northward. Additionally, existing data indicate that as extreme weather events become more common, outbreaks of diseases such as hantavirus will become more extensive and have greater impact. Introduced diseases are costly not only to humans, but also to livestock and crops, with current estimates at $41 billion per year. This figure will only increase as climate change-driven diseases emerge.

The effect on wildlife will also be severe. Scientists have recently suggested that diseases, such as a fungal disease that is responsible for die-offs of amphibians on a global scale, distempter virus in dogs, ferrets, and marine mammals, and brucellocis in bison, are all related to global warming.

The public is also confused about rainfall for they often believe that the increased precipitation forecast by models of global warming will be a good thing. It is important to note that predictions for increased rainfall over continents are only average predictions and they refer to entire continents. On a smaller scale, some areas will experience catastrophic floods, whereas others will suffer extreme drought. Some areas might get increased precipitation but won't be able to utilize it, because the proper infrastructure might not be in place. Yet another problem is that as soil moisture increases, there is an increase in microbes, which as they breathe leads to greater production of greenhouse gases.

While local precipitation changes are difficult to predict with certainty, global climate models predict that arid and semi-arid areas like the US west and midwest are likely to become more arid, with longer and more intense droughts. The implications for US agriculture, which dominates the midwest, are obvious, and one only need recall the dust bowl years to understand the potential challenges. Furthermore, as the Rocky Mountain states are the fastest growing region of the US, any decrease in precipitation will be devastating, not only in terms of agriculture, ranching and general livability, but also in terms of recreation -- a large component of the region's economy.

Devastating storms and other extreme weather events may increase due to global warming. Although we don't have a lengthy database for comparison, it makes good sense in terms of what we know about atmospheric circulation. Because the atmosphere convects, much like a pot of water heated on the stove, increasing its temperature causes more convection, which leads to more chaotic behavior, greater variation, and less predictability in the track of the jet stream. Large loops and bends in the jet streams appear to have been more common in recent years. For example, unseasonably cold temperatures dip into the agricultural areas of Florida with increased frequency as the jet stream takes huge southward dips across the continent. As these large loops in the jet stream move across the continent they spawn large outbreaks of tornadoes and other severe weather events. Many experts predict that such storms will become more common and be more intense as global warming increases. Because atmospheric convection occurs in 3-dimensions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the jet stream with its winds of 200+ mph, will no longer be constrained to higher levels of the atmosphere, but occasionally dip to earth to create extensive areas of "clear air" devastation.

Another potential result of global warming, unappreciated by the general public and politicians alike, is the possibility of large, abrupt and widespread climate change. Scientists studying past climate changes have discovered unequivocal geological evidence that Earth's climate has suddenly changed by up to 16û C (61ûF) over a decade or even fewer years. Apparently, climate is pushed over a threshold, such that changes are no longer gradual but abrupt, and global climate reaches an entirely new state. A recent study by the National Research Council concludes that global warming related to human activities could trigger abrupt climate changes that would shock ecosystems and societies.

Just as climate is forced past a threshold, societies and ecosystems can also be pushed past thresholds. Consider that much of our infrastructure, such as dams and levees, is based on past experience. A small increase in precipitation, say 10 per cent, could easily create enough water to top dams and levees, leading to increased frequency of devastating floods such as occured in the upper midwest during 1997. If Glen Canyon dam were breached as it almost was in 1983, the resulting flood would take out all downstream dams on the Colorado river -- an event that would starve a large part of California's agribusiness and millions of people throughout the southwest of water.

Abrupt climate change can have serious impact on long-lived capital stocks, especially houses or other infrastructure with lifetimes of 50-100 years or more. Coastal structures, for example, could suffer exceptionally high losses through abrupt sea level rise or increased storm frequency and higher waves. The better we anticipate the effects of climate changes, the better we are able to minimize our losses through relocating structures, etc. In other words, if we have enough warning we can adapt. On the other hand, the losses to ecosystems, such as forests, which migrate slowly, could be devastating.

Denying the relevance of past events, or the reality and causes of current global warming, will be costly, for it poses real risks. Already the South Pacific islands of Tebua Tarawa and Abunuea have vanished beneath the rising seas; super outbreaks of tornadoes are arriving in the US much later in the year than normal; and torrential rains and droughts are becoming commonplace. Some societies faced climate change in the past and learned to adapt; whereas others such as the Anasazi and Mayans were unable to do so and vanished forever. It is time for citizens to pay attention to respectable scientists, stop listening to industry front groups, and begin to take steps to face the potential difficulties. We can no longer afford to ignore them. The notion that the costs are too high is nonsense, for companies such as DuPont, Shell and BP Amoco are already proving they can reduce global warming pollution and still make a profit.
By Astaroth
#118125
Sorry guys, but I'm leaving this thread.


That's really too bad. I'm not against serious debate and you offered at least a shred of that. Unfortunately, it seems you scramble the minute you are met with any criticism or 'paraconformities'. But of course, if we aren't fossil fools (as you have repeated more often than is humanly tolerable), we are illiterate, so it must be clearly excruciating for you to bring yourself off your perch to entertain real discussion.

God speed.

I hope that between gym class and afternoon study period, you get a chance to chime in from time to time.

IPCC report due 2006


cute. I suppose that eco-philosophers are lining up to stand on their soap-boxes to offer their 2 cents. This in hopes of increasing the 20,000 mark to about 25,000. If I had a nickel....

I couldn't be bothered wasting anymore time on fossil fool advocates.


Yes, you did waste your time...ours also. THere's that 'fossil fool' catch-all again...anyone else here find that old and tired yet?

http://www.roberthildebrand.com/theright/warming.html


AND THUS, the entire fulcrum and crux of this entire debate with you. The only site you could come up with is a left-wing activist web site called "exposing the right". Wow. And you expect me to take this entire 'expose' on the straight and narrow without slant or bias? Get real mate, you are REALLY out beyond the black stump on this one.


I immediately found a contradiction in detail within this thread...
In large part, the lack of public seriousness was manufactured by special interest groups as part of a concerted effort by the polluting industries. Even though the topic of global warming had been seriously discussed among scientists since the middle 1950's, it wasn't until the testimony of Dr. James Hansen of NASA before a congressional committee in 1988 that it came to the public's attention.


But yet you didn't refute that our big concern from the 50s through to 1988 was global COOLING, of pending ice-age...that the progressivity of science hindered experts from seeing the big picture.

And SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS??? Who are you trying to deceive? Does the oil industry and other large manufacturers have special interest lobbyists in DC? Absolutely. Do you think for one moment that the environazis don't also? The problem I've had all along with you is you have absolutely NO objectivity--if you do, you haven't shown it. If there is any single issue lobby on Capitol Hill, it will be environmentalist lobbies. These lobbies are just as powerful as the oil and industry lobbies...tit for tat, man...this article was all preach, but no scripture.

In order to ascertain whether the climate is warming, we need to understand past climates, called paleoclimates.


Yadda yadda...what was that quote from Saving Private Ryan..."careful you don't step in the bullshit". Folks, understand that understanding paleoclimates is a science of assumptions. I'm not discrediting specific theories and/or assumptions here, but recognize that many assumptions may or may not be factual. Take isotopic compositions, for example. The universal assumption is that chemical compositions of the substances being observed (commonly atmospheric) were roughly the same as they are today. If not, they have a trendline that is extrapolated back beyond recorded data. Yet, because there is no way to be sure what compositions existed THEN to know what the data says NOW. This is why carbondating is a method that ends with a question mark. Scientists can only state an assumption on the levels of radioisotopic carbon several thousand years ago. Albeit it is an educated assumption, it's little more than an educated guess. If not in a million years, our top experts believed we'd ever be able to cook our food in 3 minutes with the use of 'microwaves', then don't you think our top scientists and thinkers may have some incorrect assumptions? It's called scientific skepticism, something which is okay as long as you aren't skeptical about global warming theory, seeing as though you are automatically 'illiterate' and a supporter of Big Oil if you disagree with the conclusions.

The rest of this article did nothing to support global warming. All it did was establish the importance of the topic due to gross misunderstandings within the general 'lay' public. In other words, people do not understand the macro-scale of global heating since it always boils down to: well, we all benefit because soon we are all in tropical paradise. Never have I said that global warming is something to be shrugged off--What I've stated is that global warming, as it is being handled and panhandled is nothing more than blithering scaremongering in politics and press. It has been blown out of proportion. This doesn't mean it's not an important issue to study, research and debate, but that's quite different than throwing billions of dollars at something that may prove to be ineffectual.

Astaroth
By Astaroth
#118132
[edit: sorry for the double post....please delete me]
User avatar
By 1skull2hands
#118174
Dear Astaroth, why are you making assumptions ie. unproven theories
like calling people eco-philosophers, No I don't really understand where you are coming from and really don't care :knife:

Anyway I am a naturalist, and studied this topic yes, when I was 16 in high school, they called it earth sciences! And in case you don't know, this is the reel thing! Global warming is happening now! It is up to us to make wise dissions concerning the earth's environment to conserve future life and resources. :eek:

In university I studied anthropology as well as paleoantropology, so yes I beleive in evolution, you little narrow minded man!

P.S. I thought global warming already had proven theories? If you are looking for a more complete deffinition of atmospheric chemical data, find yourself an earth sciences, or physical geoghaphy text!

peace yall
By Astaroth
#118281
why are you making assumptions ie. unproven theories
like calling people eco-philosophers,


I did not call him that. That is the extent of the credentials to which he provided. He called himself that.

In university I studied anthropology as well as paleoantropology, so yes I beleive in evolution, you little narrow minded man!


Yes, but what was your degree? Taking earth sciences when you were 16 and a couple courses in college don't make you any more of an expert than any of us here so far, so what is your point? As for being narrowminded, if we were to put this to a vote for those that are reading in this thread, who do you think would be more narrow minded: the people who have responded as you have who say nothing more than, "yes, global warming exists and that is final because the majority says so", or people like me who have stated, "I don't think global warming exists BECAUSE the majority says so, and recognize that alternative theories DO exist and I am more willing to entertain such alternatives." Being narrowminded is a label for those that don't openly accept alternatives--if the shoe fits, wear it. Equally so, I have done enough study on evolution/creation to understand that both require a level of faith to accept; the difference being that creation theory is a theory that fits the facts, while evolution theory leans heavily on 'majority rule' and cannot explain outlier paraconformities...in other words, evolutionists must throw up their hands suggesting that the discrepencies in the theory may not be understood now, but will eventually--ie, it takes faith, not science. But as this is not the subject of this thread, I will not address this further.


I thought global warming already had proven theories?


No. Because the majority of the studies done on the subject were performed with discredtied global climate models designed under false assumptions. So once you throw out the great MAJORITY of those studies, you are left with an equal amount of studies on both sides of the debate...which is to say that THE JURY IS STILL OUT.

Astaroth
By clownboy
#118319
1skull2hands wrote:Dear Astaroth, why are you making assumptions ie. unproven theories
like calling people eco-philosophers, No I don't really understand where you are coming from and really don't care :knife:

Anyway I am a naturalist, and studied this topic yes, when I was 16 in high school, they called it earth sciences! And in case you don't know, this is the reel thing! Global warming is happening now! It is up to us to make wise dissions concerning the earth's environment to conserve future life and resources. :eek:

In university I studied anthropology as well as paleoantropology, so yes I beleive in evolution, you little narrow minded man!

P.S. I thought global warming already had proven theories? If you are looking for a more complete deffinition of atmospheric chemical data, find yourself an earth sciences, or physical geoghaphy text!

peace yall

It's obvious that you didn't read the thread. Every one of the questions you asked were previously asked and answered. Every little High School supposition they spoon-fed you was debunked.

Now, "narrow-minded man" comment - pot, kettle, black. The Theory of Evolution is just that - a theory. In fact if you'd bothered to keep up, it's actually a group of theories. Some with more substaniation than others. The very act of calling someone narrow-minded for not buying your theory outright falls into the irony category.

If you had bothered to read a little first (with at least minimal comprehension) you'd see that the theory of evolution wasn't the matter at hand.
By David Henry
#118401
Astaroth wrote:
w


I have done enough study on evolution/creation to understand that both require a level of faith to accept; the difference being that creation theory is a theory that fits the facts


You're a creationist....LOL.
Man's here to dominate nature huh :eek:
By David Henry
#118405
clownboy wrote:
1skull2hands wrote:.


The Theory of Evolution is just that - a theory. In fact if you'd bothered to keep up, it's actually a group of theories


Interesting!!!...out of curiosity, which of these theories doesn't include natural selection as the central mechanism for biological progress?
By Astaroth
#119024
You're a creationist....LOL.
Man's here to dominate nature huh


DH, you presume that such pithy comments are both accurate and antagonistic, leading to the conclusion that somehow you are insulting me.

Firstly, I am unapolagetically a creationist, yes. But your own lack of 'scientific objectivity' reveals that you are quick to assert that creationists believe that man is here to dominate nature, when, by and large, this is unsubstantiated. First of all, there is a difference between a conservationist and an environmentalist. But most pointedly, I would state that man is here to co-exist with nature--a symbiotic relationship. Only for environmentalists, the needs of nature supersede the needs of man. This is why there are such destructive laws in our books such as the Endangered Species Act that do more harm than good.

So no, you have only furthered my impression of your ignorance to views and conclusions outside the realm of your worldview and ecophilosophic agenda.

I thought you were leaving?

Interesting!!!...out of curiosity, which of these theories doesn't include natural selection as the central mechanism for biological progress?


You have further shown your ignorance on topics outside the scope of your little world, while accusing US of being narrowminded.

The proof of this is within your statement, as BOTH the theory of Creation and the theory of Evolution understand and integrate natural selection as a central mechanism for biological process.

But to show how little you understand, let me illustrate. Natural selection is only the survival (biological favoritism) of stronger traits expressed as dominant genes in a population of a specific species. However, the genes MUST ALREADY EXIST to become dominant within the species. Moreover, interspecial natural selection has only existed due to our taxonomic methodology, where we classified related animalia due to slightly differing physical characteristics and geography as different species, when they were the same species all along.

Much like Scandinavian folk are predominantly fair-skinned with light hair, and Nigerians are predominantly very black skinned with very curly, black hair. Using the same classification methods, we would be forced to call these two groups different species, but we know they are not.

Natural selection is not evidence of evolution any more than it is evidence of creation. It is a biological mechanism used interspecially to strengthen traits for better survival OF THE SPECIES. This is because natural selection does NOT create new genes, but emphasises already existing genes into dominant traits. The framework must already be there. For this reason, even Darwin himself distanced himself from natural selection as evidence of evolution, and focussed his work in search of other hopeful 'proofs' of that theory. Current evolutionists have also distanced themselves from this line of argument.

Once again, creationism is a theory that fits the facts, that doesn't ignore paraconformities. BOTH theories require faith.

Can we stay on topic please? Remember...we are discussing global warming here....

Next.


Astaroth
By antigoat
#121788
astaroth, I'd avoid explaining evolution or natural selection if I were you. Natural selection has nothing to do with turning traits into dominant traits (assuming you mean how brown eyes are dominant to blue in people).

Secondly, the phenotypic differences in skin and hair color between scandanavians and africans would not cause these two groups to be put into different species; save for inept biologists.

RE Global warming- would someone who does not think global warming is occuring explain to me what they predict is happening/will happen in the carbon cycle with the massive release of carbon from fossil fuels into the active cycle?

just curious
By clownboy
#121793
antigoat wrote:RE Global warming- would someone who does not think global warming is occuring explain to me what they predict is happening/will happen in the carbon cycle with the massive release of carbon from fossil fuels into the active cycle?

just curious


Global warming may indeed be happenning, the main argument here has been over cause.

As for the "massive release of carbon ...", not everyone agrees that our "release" is massive on a world system scale.
By Astaroth
#121920
stated well clownboy.

to antigoat:

I admit that I may not have been clear in my earlier statement about natural selection, but there are still facts that speak for themselves.

adaptation, as in for say, the peppered moths, must come FIRST, BEFORE natural selection. The species MUST have the genetic information prior to becoming selective. In order for a species to respond to environments to befit stronger survival, the information must already be in the gene pool, which offers nothing to support evolution. This leads to conclusive evidence of SUBspeciation, change AMONG type, which we would call 'microevolution', but creationists believe this occurs. There is no evidence that supports TRANSspeciation, or change BETWEEN type. Not unless you still believe in 'pangenes', the ability to maintain change in your bloodstream and give it down to your kids. But that has been debunked for ages.

So once again, natural selection is not a 'change' in genetic code, it is a statistical variance in genes that promote survivability within a species..."Natural selection operates essentially to enable the organisms to MAINTAIN their state of adaptation rather than to IMPROVE it....natural selection over the long run does not seem to improve a species' chances of survival, but simply enables it to 'track', or keep up with, the constantly changing environment"..that is it takes genetic information ALREADY existing and STATISTICALLY dominates the species, as with the peppered moth that changed its color for camoflage as an example. No new genetic information was gained, evidence of evolution is not supported here.

Astaroth
By alaskarebel
#176751
I live in alaska and see growing proof of it i see plants growing in place were not there no more the winter are more slushie and 10 degree warming than use be 20 years ago so how it that not globa warming

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