[R_G]

I'm surprised I didn't post this sooner.

Well anyway, Hitler abandoned the rocket project in around 41, which was not a smart move, luckily for him Von Braun still continued his work albeit with minimal funding.

In 1940, Braun told Hitler he'd have his rocket ready by 1943, the V2, which was far superior to the wasted V1, was made possible only in late 1944.

Now the V2s were still utilized even with approaching allied armies already in ground in France.

The aerial allied bombing however broke any chance the Nazis had of using the even more sophisticated A9 & A10, intended to be used together they would have been used to bomb Eastern United States, it is very questionable how early they could have been made but by all logical estimation of how the V2 could have been used at least a year earlier than it was, the A9 and A10 could have very possibly been enacted before the Normandy landings, in spring or even late winter of 1944.

Plus had the V2 been in service in mid 1943 it could have been used in mass assaults against the Soviets.


Here's a link if you need one, I got all of my info through various footage and analysis of the V1 and V2 in World War II tapes and early U.S. and Soviet IBM programs, which were made by blueprints from the Nazis and Von Braun.

http://www.pp.htv.fi/jwestman/space/nazispace.html

[R_G]

So what, you people don't like what ifs?

[Oxymoron]

With out a WMD the Rockets could not have won the war for Germany.

[Siberian Fox]

Any mistakes made by Germany in not developing technology fast enough were ultimately to their benefit. If the war had been made longer by more advanced German weaponry, such as more guided rockets inhibiting the allied fleet launching an amphibious assault, then American's might have ended up using the Atomic bomb on Germany before Japan.

Germany was going to lose the war anyway, but the Western allies didn't really want want the Russians to be first in Berlin, never mind Paris. The A-bomb might have been used to let the Russians know when enough was enough. And if the Russians had defeated Germany before the atom-bomb was ready then the cold war might have been very different indeed (but that's a whole other thread).

[R_G]

Many historians believe had the Germans conquered Europe by 1944/45 there would have been a Cold War between the United States and Nazi Germany, not a nuclear holocaust.

[Siberian Fox]

had the Germans conquered Europe by 1944/45

I think this is why a lot of people ignore "what if" threads Russian_Guy. It's just pure fantasy.

I'm sure there will be a thread somewhere on the board if you search for it "Could Germany have possibly won the war in a million years?". If not (I suspect unlikely) feel free to start a thread asking the question and I'm sure people will explain why.

[R_G]

I think most people don't study history as thoroughly then, because Germany would have won the war unquestionably had they taken care of Northern Africa and by that measure conquered Britain firstly, before going after the Soviets.

[Oxymoron]

I think most people don't study history as thoroughly then, because Germany would have won the war unquestionably had they taken care of Northern Africa and by that measure conquered Britain firstly, before going after the Soviets.

Yes because invading an Island Nation with out having proper landing craft against the most formidable Navy in the world would be very simple and easy.

Germany had no chance at taking Britain with out securing the Eastern Front. If Germany hadnt invaded the USSR the reverse would have happend.

[Thunderhawk]

Look at the modern day usage of weapons like the V2s.
What do these missiles/rockets do?

They could develop and use them as tactical weapons, targeting very specific locations/targets. However, What could the Germans have targeted with a reasonable chance of hitting that would be worth hitting with the expense of a V2? Triangulating for the missile with subs will not give them prcise enough information to hit a target.

Alternatively they could go for the massed attack apporach like Scuds and rocket artillery do. But that consumes more of the resources they were trying to save by developing those weapons (rather then planes/bombers).




Even if the Germans had managed to strike the USA with large V2s (Super scuds, basically) what would that do? They wouldnt be able to target and hit anything of real value unless they got lucky. Good for morale, but strategically and even tactically worthless.

[nilof]

If I remember correctly, the scuds that the soviets had in the mid-50s, with quite a lot of advances in technology since the early V2s, still had an average spread of 8-10 km when fired from land and twice that when fired from a boat. It would be completely useless without nuclear warheads. The real improvements came in the late 50s, and there's no way the Germans could have stalled long enough to get that kind of tech, when the US, as SF said, had nukes.

[Lone Gunman]

I think a lot of it came down to Hitler's stupidity and delusions. Hitler also had some beefs about the first assault rifle, the STG44 (MP44) which was working miracles for German troops stuck on the eastern front. The rifle was made in secret by intelligent German officers and later presented to Hitler after more successful field tests. Hitler finally agreed and by 1944/45 the STG44 was scaring the shit out of allied soldiers who'd never seen such violent accuracy and firepower from a rifle before.

But, like the V2, it was just part of a long line of things that were 'too little, too late' for Nazi Germany. Considering the Germans had invented:

-The most sophisticated rockets known to man.

-The world's first assault rifle.

-The world's first jet fighter and rocket fighter.

-Some of the world's most powerful artillery pieces such as the 88m flak cannon.

Hitler's delusions were of course 'bigger is better' but if you consider what the Germans knew and what they had by 1944 lord knows what the outcome of the war would have been if Hitler decided to act earlier and PREPARE. So, just for the fun of it, I'll ask 'what if'?

-What if Germany had invested more research into a nuclear weapon, because we all know they had the brains for it and the engineering capability. Perhaps a working warhead by 1943?

-What if the V2s were engineered earlier and a nuclear warhead placed inside by at least 1943/early 44?

-What if Hitler never invaded Russia and honoured the non-aggression pact? I'm really just asking 'what if Hitler listened to his generals?' lol.

-What if the STG44 was issued to troops as soon as Hitler saw that it was doing well in field tests? This would mean more German troops outfitted with the superior weapon by 1943 and 1944.

We know Hitler was researching heavy water and that the German scientists were well aware of how to build some kind of nuclear weapon. Problem for them was Hitler's battle plans made it increasingly difficult to put time, effort and materials into such grandiose projects when the Americans had all those things in abundance as well as as the knowledge that the continental USA was not going to be attacked by either Germany or Japan during WWII.

Yes so WHAT IF? Well...if Germany had the won the war and armed themselves with V2 rockets outfitted with nuclear warheads god knows what the world would be like today. I'd say Germany would not have survived a cold war with the USA if Hitler or any of his hardcore Nazi thugs continued to
rule.

Lone Gunman

[Thunderhawk]

Too many "what ifs" based on make believe history.

[R_G]

I think the bottom line aside from the what ifs is that the Third Reich army as a whole was the greatest ever seen, you have to respect that.

The fact that they eventually did not succeed largely do to ignorance among the leading staff is a testament to the " you're your own worst enemy " line.

It is always a bit funny to think what would have happened had Hitler just waited a year, the Americans really weren't preparing for any war in 1939 or 1940.

[Siberian Fox]

I think the bottom line aside from the what ifs is that the Third Reich army as a whole was the greatest ever seen, you have to respect that.

It was possibly the best organised land-army in the world at the time, I don't know about "ever".

Looking at the entire German armed forces overall, the Navy was obviously weak, but more importantly, the emphasis on the air force working tactically with the army was so overbearing that Germany totally neglected the possibility of strategic bombing. The Luftwaffe never possessed true a four engined bomber, and thus wasn't able to hit Russian industry as it might have. Also, despite all the famousness of "the Blitz", German bombing of British cities was not anywhere near on par with what the RAF did to Germany.

what would have happened had Hitler just waited a year, the Americans really weren't preparing for any war in 1939 or 1940.

The British would have had more Hurricane and Spitfire fighter aircraft and more trained pilots. The Russians would have had more T-34 tanks ready and Germany would have still lost the war.

[Thunderhawk]

If Hitler waited another year, the French would have had more aircraft, newer aircraft, and more pilots aswell.

I suspect that the Germans would not have stumbled into the French HQ as they did historically.

[R_G]

The Russians would have had more T-34 tanks ready and Germany would have still lost the war.

You give Stalin too much credit.

When the Germans were already attacking Stalin refused to send re-enforcements believing it was a lie.....

And the Germans had a better model fighter plane that idiot Goering never fully commissioned, forget the name I was watching a documentary on german planes.

[Einherjar]

Hitler never wanted a world war. German pre-war military production certainly reflected that desire. What he wanted was a quick war against Poland by which he would restore German's former borders. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously, this strategy was based on the not very realistic assumption that Britain and French would for the umpteenth time not intervene.

Operation Barbarossa was a different matter. Hitler's decision to invade the Soviet Union was strategically spot-on. Operation Barbarossa was launched after both the Soviet Union and the Red Army were in great disarray (following the Great Purges and the Red Army's poor performance in the Winter War).

OB was in many respects a marvellous campaign, so much so that the Germans became victims of their own success. After merely one week of campaigning, the Germans were utterly successful and assured of victory, as is evident by Generaloberst Halder's initial entries in his diary.

There a number of factors which contributed, in one way or another, to the subsequent reversal.

- Overconfidence. Following this early extraordinary success, Adolf Hitler actually put his economy to peacetime mode in order to alleviate strain from domestic affairs, as opposed to British and Soviet industry which operated 24/7 employing both sexes. (So much for totalitarianism..)

- Blitzkrieg success backfiring. The panzers and motorized infantry smashing so easily through Soviet lines put a substantial number of Soviet forces behind enemy lines. These had to be encountered by German light infantry which delayed their advance and destroyed the cohesion of the German offensive. As the offensive advanced more deeply into Soviet territory, poor infrastructure and heavy rain reduced the effectiveness of German armoured units.

- German brutality and the Einsatzgruppen backfiring. Brutal German behaviour in occupied territory and with Soviet POWs simply forced Soviet infantry to fight to the death with zeal and ardour. Not to mention the militarywise ineffective Einsatzgruppen's concern with 'neutralising' Jewish communities which prevented them from being focused on the real enemies.

- Soviet ingenuity and technology. Around 1500 industrial factories from Western Russia were dismantled bolt by bolt and moved to the East beyond the Urals along with a million workers. This ensured industrial continuum. Additionally, the introduction of the T-34 medium tank (whose first prototypes only emerged in 1940) seriously contradicted previous German intelligence reports underestimating Soviet technological ability.

[Siberian Fox]

You give Stalin too much credit.

I'm not quite sure how I managed that. I haven't even mentioned him.

And the Germans had a better model fighter plane that idiot Goering never fully commissioned, forget the name I was watching a documentary on german planes.

Lack of interesting fighter types to develop was not a problem the Germans suffered from. A far bigger problem for German industry in general was having too many types of everything and a lack of shared components. As the war progressed this deficiency became painfully apparent (particularly when compared to Russian and American tank production) German industry was re-organised to try and standardise things more. The fact that the Germans decided to concentrate on the BF109 as their primary fighter quite early on was one of the wisest decisions they made. They managed to produce a vast quantity of them which helped put German fighter production on a better footing against the allies than it would have otherwise been.

It's very easy to get tied up on German technology projects. What won the war for the allies was mass production.

If Germany had left the war another year then it's industry certainly might have been better organised, but there are four reasons I would suggest it would not have been enough:

• The allies knew war was coming and were also gearing up.
• Without the pressure of war, the temptation would still be there not to rationalise enough and still be inefficient.
• The huge bureaucracy the Nazis put in place at the head of organising the German economy was immensely inefficient. Without stealing from other countries a peacetime German economy may not have fared so well.
• Germany never properly utilised it's workforce potential. Women were not put to work in factories. Plus the millions of Jews and others later put to death during the war instead of being put to work.