[xzqzq]

I'm a real fan of Erich Hartmann, the WWII German Ace... With 350 victories, this guy had probabily more victories than all the American and British Aces combined. Sadly, I never see the exploits of the German Aces on the Military Channel, only those of American fliers. Frank Luke, Dick Bong et all are interesting, but when you want the first team, you gotta go with the Germans. Being on the losing side in to world wars doesn't disqualify the individual from being worthy of interest and respect, imo

[Thunderhawk]

1) Link?


2) What planes did this ace fly against?

If he made most of his kills against the Soviet airforce then it diminishes his accomplishments a great deal as the Soviets had very few capable fighter pilots flying good fighter planes in localized concentration that wasnt a joke.

[Dave]

Hartmann flew exclusively on the Eastern Front.

There was nothing wrong with Soviet fighter planes, their aircraft were quite good, especially for the conditions of the Eastern Front.

Their pilots, however, were worse than the Germans, but hardly incompetent.

[Einherjar]

Hartmann only lost one wingman whom he had previously hesitated to recruit, for he had been trained as a bomber, and who still survived anyway.

[Mokeroo]

One reason why the Germans shot down so many airplanes compared to the allies, is because the allies had so much more equipment in 1944-1945.

I also have to mention that the soviets lost a lot of planes due to bad quality. Lots of 'missing in action'.

[SeriousCat]

Being on the losing side in to world wars doesn't disqualify the individual from being worthy of interest and respect

The Red Baron was a German fighter pilot in the Great War and is the most famous flying ace in the world.

Link?

He is apparently the "highest scoring fighter ace in the history of aerial combat", and said that "dogfighting is a waste of time", instead revealing his position at the last possible moment in a surprise attack.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

[Thunderhawk]

There was nothing wrong with Soviet fighter planes, their aircraft were quite good, especially for the conditions of the Eastern Front.

Compared to the Germans fighters the Soviets had inferrior fighters. Maybe not a great deal inferrior, but combined with poor pilots and poor training it mounts up. I dont discount his success, but the context does diminish his success.

Should American pilots during GW1&2 who shoot down out-dated dilapidated Iraqi craft be as highly praised as American pilots in WW2 who faced the (early to mid-war) Japanese?

[SeriousCat]

Compared to the Germans fighters the Soviets had inferrior fighters. Maybe not a great deal inferrior, but combined with poor pilots and poor training it mounts up. I dont discount his success, but the context does diminish his success. Should American pilots during GW1&2 who shoot down out-dated dilapidated Iraqi craft be as highly praised as American pilots in WW2 who faced the (early to mid-war) Japanese?

If you read the bottom sections of the source I have provided, even if it is Wikipedia, there is a section on his tactics. Given his "stalk-and-ambush" modus operandi, and his "point blank" firing, it does not matter what kind of plane you have, you would still go down. He claims that 80% of his enemies downed "didn't know what hit them". At point blank range in an ambush, a MG 15 autocannon, although weak, would have easily ripped through aircraft armour.

He was known to have poor equipment himself, as you say his enemies did. To compensate for that poor equipment and lack of fire power - although his Messerschmitt Bf 109 was powerful - by using the element of surprise and catching his enemies flat-footed. I understand where your suspicions come from, since the top three scoring aces in World War II were German pilots that fought on the Eastern Front.

[Thunderhawk]

I am not dismissing his achievement, I just dont consider it par to Aces (on either side) on the Western front.

[Siberian Fox]

German fighter pilots clocked up massive kill statistics compared with their allied counterparts because they didn't get any leave. German pilots flew until they were killed, hence they had much more opportunity for action and many of them became very, very good.

Probably the only time the RAF might not have rotated it's pilots was the summer of 1940, when Britain found itself with more aircraft than trained men to fly them. Hence the creation of Polish squadrons, as well as other nationalities within the RAF. Thus, even if a RAF pilot was as good as a Luftwaffe pilot, he was unlikely to have as many kills.

[alyster]

Hartmann didn't have 350 kills but 352. Aside from that I'd like to point out to Thunderhawk that no allied pilot didn't come close to German scores on either Eastern or Western Front. Germans had people who killed over 100 planes(e.g. A.Galland) in west. Allies had.... top score of ? ... 51?

However perhaps the best fighter pilot of WW2 was Ivan Kozhedub (62 kills), who managed to keep himself alive and actually shoot down some Germans unlike most of his fellow pilots.

And something was seriously wrong with Soviet Air Force. Even Finnish Air Force achived 4 to 1 killing ratio during Winter War. And they used crappy Fokker D.XXI at that time.

[Okonkwo]

And something was seriously wrong with Soviet Air Force. Even Finnish Air Force achived 4 to 1 killing ratio during Winter War. And they used crappy Fokker D.XXI at that time.

Soviet Air Force was a big mess. Stalin said in 1931 that the status of the Soviet military was "50 to 100 years behind."
Coupled with the Great Purge in the military and a severe lack of military experience the Soviet Air Force was a force not to be reckoned with.
Hell, 12% of their air forces even consisted of lend-lease aircraft from the USA and the UK, which resulted in friendly fire because British Spitfire Mk. Vb looked a lot like the German Bf 109.

[Thunderhawk]

The purges didnt affect the airforce too much, as the Soviet airforce was largely a soviet product - not something they inherited from Czarist Russia and then modified.

[Okonkwo]

The purges didnt affect the airforce too much, as the Soviet airforce was largely a soviet product - not something they inherited from Czarist Russia and then modified.

You might be right there, of the 700.000 (the official number, if I recall correctly) people killed most were "anti-Soviet" Tsarists and "kulaks".
The Imperial Russian Airforce was transformed into the "Workers' and Peasants' Airforce" after the Revolution and the Civil War. There were some Russian flying aces, for example Aleksandr Kozakov and arguably the best aviation designer and pioneer Igor Sikorsky who got lost because of the transformation of Russia into a socialist state.

[Thunderhawk]

And others, like Tupolev, were in prison design bureaus.

Czarist Russian aviation is far better then most in the West give it credit for, but as good as it was, the Soviet airforce of WW2 was very much a Soviet construct. Italy was the only country with a comparable combat airforce that wasnt (re)created 1-2 decades before WW2.

[Okonkwo]

Czarist Russian aviation is far better then most in the West give it credit for, but as good as it was, the Soviet airforce of WW2 was very much a Soviet construct. Italy was the only country with a comparable combat airforce that wasnt (re)created 1-2 decades before WW2.

I'll just believe you there, you see I'm far from an expert on Russian/Soviet aviation and military matters.
The little that I know I did postulate here.

[Nattering Nabob]

You never hear anything about Hans Rudel either...

According to official Luftwaffe figures, Rudel flew some 2,530 combat missions (a world record)[5], during which he destroyed almost 2,000 ground targets (among them 519 tanks, 70 assault craft/landing boats, 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armored trains, and 800 other vehicles; as well as 9 planes (2 Il-2's and 7 fighters). He also sank a battleship, two cruisers and a destroyer. He was shot down or forced to land 32 times (several times behind enemy lines), but always managed to escape capture despite a 100,000 ruble bounty placed on his head by Stalin himself. He was also wounded five times and rescued six stranded aircrew from enemy territory. The vast majority of his missions were spent piloting the various models of the Junkers Ju 87, though by the end of the war he flew the ground-attack variant of the Fw 190.

He went on to become the most decorated serviceman of all the fighting arms of the German armed forces (the only person to become more highly decorated was Hermann Göring who was awarded the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross), earning by early 1945 the Wound Badge in Gold, the German Cross in Gold, the Pilots and Observer's Badge with Diamonds, the Front Flying Clasp of the Luftwaffe with 2,000 sorties in Diamonds, and the only holder of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds (the highest-scoring ace of World War II, Erich Hartmann, also held the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds — but his Oak Leaves weren't gold). He was also promoted to Oberst at this time.[6] He was the only foreigner to be honored with Hungary's highest decoration, the Golden Medal for Bravery.