Could Germany Have Won WW2? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The Second World War (1939-1945).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
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By soron
#1128049
There was way too much political interference and infighting going on. It didn't help that the former WW1 private Hitler overruled his Generals and caused such idiotic events like Stalingrad where he let the 6th Army die. For this and other brilliant strategies he was nicknamed "Adolf Groefaz" by the military behind his back (Groefaz being short for "Groesster Feldherr Aller Zeiten", greatest leader in history).

Here's a list of idiot decisions based on jealousy, political decisions and infighting I can think off right now:
Duncerce: The British expeditionary corps was surrounded by German tanks when Goering, chief of the Luftwaffe, complained that his Luftwaffe didn't have enough opportunity for victory and glory. So the ground forces were stopped in order to give Goering the chance for striking the final blow - and while the Luftwaffe waited 3 days for weather to improve to flying conditions, the Brits created their own miracle and saved their army.
Radar: For some reason Goering didn't permitt to attack the Radar stations along the channel.
Operation Barbarossa: The German Eastern front was initially equipped only with second class equipment which wasn't good enough for the intended invasion of Great Britain. The German army was ill-prepared for the Russian winter although the German field commander's handbook of 1917 told exactly what to expect and how to deal with it.
Rommel: For the longest time Rommel never received enough support to really win North Africa although he was well on the way to the oil fields of the middle east and the Suez channel. Jealousy in the German high command prevented that. When he finally pressed the point Hitler sent reinforcements - but he used the forces that initially were tasked to conquer Malta. So the Brits never lost their "unsinkable aircraft carrier".
New aircraft: The world's first jet fighter, the Me 262, was plagued by delay upon delay because Goering wanted it to be a fast bomber, so lot's of effort and time was wasted to turn a prime fighter into a fast but otherwise subpar bomber.

Bottomline: I think although the German army did their best to win the war, their commanders were trying harder to loose it.
Last edited by soron on 28 Feb 2007 08:32, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Thoss
#1128450
Himmler, chief of the Luftwaffe


I don't like to nitpick, but was it not Goring as Luftwaffe chief?
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By Thunderhawk
#1128587
The me 262 is so over rated.

Another example of excessive pampering of special projects over utilitarian and practical weapons.
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By Red Rebel
#1128782
*Don't worry about the Jews. Germany had plenty of other scape goats. Concentration camps were a waste of resources.
*Swallow your German pride and screw battleships (keep with the U-boats).
*Don't bomb the citizens of London.
*No two front war.
By GandalfTheGrey
#1128880
Hitler shouldn't have invaded Russia. Incompatible with his ideology, granted, but it would have been the best move strategically: Hitler had all of Europe conquered or allied, and he had the resources to maintain the occupation given the level of fascist sympathy throughout Europe. Furthermore, under the treaty with the USSR, Stalin was dutifully shipping in regular batches of precious raw materials into Germany. At this juncture, Hitler's focus should have been on North Africa, and then the oil rich Middle East. After conquering all this, there would be no need to invade Britain as she would have been effectively crippled.
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By soron
#1128882
I don't like to nitpick, but was it not Goring as Luftwaffe chief?


It's odd that a German got the name of the Luftwaffe chief wrong.


ROFL you're right of course. Me and names - we don't get along very well :lol: so in this case it was sort of a Freudian slip - again (Himmler ~ "Himmel" , German for "sky" which is probably why I associated him with the Luftwaffe)


The me 262 is so over rated.


In some regard, yes. When the Brits tested the design after the war they were kind of shocked that the expected lifetime of the engines was only 15 hours. That was ok tho - considering the expected lifetime of airplane and pilot at the end of the war was somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 hours.
However the ME 262 did pack some particular weapons, among others a rail with 48 unguided missiles under the wings. The Me262 was fast enough to give the B17s gunners a real hard time, and the missile rails were designed to break up the close formations of the B17s. Once they were singled out, they were easy prey for regular fighters such as the Me109 or the Fw190 so a large number of Me262 fighters a year earlier might have altered the air battle over Europe.
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By Thunderhawk
#1128901
The Me262 was fast enough to give the B17s gunners a real hard time



To be fair, most bomber gunners had problems with all but the slowest or most stupid (fly in strait line towards bomber) fighters/interceptors.
User avatar
By soron
#1128907
Agreed, that's why the close bomber formations were effective, lots of overlapping guns.
Flying in straight line towards a bomber isn't as easy to avoid as it sounds considering you have to aim by pointing the aircraft in the direction of the target.
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By alyster
#1128988
Me262 is even bit too fast to attack a bomber. Me262 had to close in from behind, from front it was impossible(double speed).
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By the monkey
#1129246
Except Franco had predicted that Germany would not survive a long war. Hitler tried many times to convince Franco to join, but to no avail.

As far as I know, Hitler did visit Franco in 1939 in order to convince him to join the war, but Franco demanded territories in North Africa, something Hitler couldn't accept. But I've been wrong before...
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1129630
Hitler offered Gibraltor.

Churchill warned Franco that Britain would take the Canary islands (and whatever other overseas territory it had left) if Spain went over to the Axis.
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By noemon
#1173075
General Andrew J. Goodpaster, USA (Ret.)
Former Supreme Commander of NATO

The aforementioned man provides a bulk of information about the Greek front in WWII.

More than 300 days lasted the Greek front before it collapsed against the Powers of the Axis.

A few quotes:

All free peoples are deeply impressed by the courage and steadfastness of the Greek nation. ...which is defending itself so valiantly.

Roosevelt

If there had not been the virtue and courage of the Greeks, we do not know which the outcome of World War II would had been.

Winston Churchill

First Greece taught us that free men can be brave, and that no defeat is meant to last forever. This small nation proved to be worthy of its history.

Albert Camus, French author and philosopher

Our country, in which virtue is especially honoured, watches with admiration the struggle of the Greeks in Albania. We are so much touched, that, by letting aside every other feeling, we shout: LONG LIVE HELLAS!.

Mainichi Shimbun, Japanese newspaper, 7 December 1940

The Russian people will always be grateful to the Greeks for delaying the German army long enough for winter to set in, thereby giving us the precious time we needed to prepare. We will never forget.

Joseph Stalin, in an open letter read frequently on Radio Moscow during the war

Historical justice forces me to admit that among all the enemies who stand against us, the Greek soldier above all, fought with the most courage. He surrendered himself only when the continuation of resistance was not possible any longer, and when he had no reason not to... However, he fought so bravely, that even his enemies can not deny their respect for him... Thus, the Greek prisoners of war were released immediately, having in mind the heroic stance of these soldiers.[3]

Adolph Hitler, Reichstag, 4 May 1941

I forbid the Press to underestimate the Greeks, to defame them... The Führer admires the bravery of Greeks. [4]

Joseph Goebbels in his diary, 9 April 1941


The brave struggle of the people of this relatively small nation, for the right to live without interventions by dictatoric states, calls forth the respect and admiration of all the nations who love freedom.

United States Congress, 3 April 1941

Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks.[5]

Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

In the name of the captured yet still alive French people, France wants to send her greetings to the Greek people who are fighting for their freedom. The 25th of March, 1941 finds Greece in the peak of their heroic struggle and in the top of their glory. Since the battle of Salamis Greece had not achieved the greatness and the glory which today holds.

Charles de Gaulle, President of the French Republic



All these make the matter clear enough. Something that none of the posters honored with some thought.
By redstarline
#1175469
Spain didnt need or want another war in the 1930s and by the time they could have helped Germany it was a better idea not to. France nearly started WW2, it could have attacked Spain provoking Germay, but was told by the UK it would do so alone. Spain did help the Nazis though, they allowed them to train in their Civil War and traded with them. And they helped out with Intelligance world wide.
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By Far-Right Sage
#1175688
Well, France wanted to take military action against Germany after the re-militarization of the Rhine, but the United Kingdom was not on board.

Spain was neutral, but pro-Axis, similar to Portugal and Sweden.
By oppose
#1175752
war is unpredictable, look at our own revolutionary war for this. of course germany could have won but they didnt and thats the way shit goes.
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By The fifth International
#1176192
There would be NO way Germany could have won the war given the circumstances,high command people like Erwin Rommel did correctly determine that German most probably would lose the war as early as 1941.

Unless this is an attempt by some romantic Neo-Nazi to daydream about the so called glories of the third-reich, I see it only as a mere waste of bandwidth of this forum.

Maybe I should alert SiberianFox of this conspiracy.
User avatar
By Thunderhawk
#1176267
noemon wrote:All these make the matter clear enough. Something that none of the posters honored with some thought.



What of the Poles who fought on durng occupation? What of Malta's refusal to give in? What of Titos Yugoslav resistence?

During the war Greek actions were valiant, but no more then other people willing to fight and die for their freedom and homeland. More effecitve then some, less effective then others. That Greek resistance later proved to have been well timed in delaying the Nazis does not make their efforts more noteworthy then the contributions of the major players who ultimately did end the war. Credit where credit is due, and the Greek share is dwarfed by that of the Soviets.

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