[PBVBROOK]

There may not be a single event so well documented. This is not a discussion of the ancient Roman legal system. Many of the people involved are still alive. There are photographs. I have personally seen the ovens at Dachau. I have seen the mass graves at Dachau. I have interviewed surviviors who had first hand knowledge (eyewitnesses)to the gassings. There are miles of film and millions of still pictures. There are pictures of the dead bodies in the gas chambers. Are these elaborate fakes? There is no room for debate. None Zip. Enquiring minds already know.
It is not an open mind that looks into the "question" of the holocaust. It is not a "question" at all. It is fact. A fact in all of its gory details.

To put it simply. Anyone who denies the holocasust in all of it sordid detials is an idiot. No scholar; just an object of scorn. There is no scholarship to be done on this subject. Just simple soul searching. The holocaust happened. People were gassed by the thousands. Killed by the millions. The last thing we need are some morons trying to make it anything other than what it was. The greatest horror in the history of the world.

[noemon]

When people talk about the Holocaust they should make mention to all those who died in there, and generally keep them in mind, when they make statements such "my family was gassed by Europeans" by NetNJFan87:

African-Negros, Albanians, Austrians, Belgians, Brazilians, Bulgarians, Canadians, Chinese, Croats, Czechs, Danes, French, Germans, British, Greeks, Dutch, Italians, Yugoslavs, Latvians, Lepths, Norwegians, Mexicans, Poles, Romanians, Spaniards, Swiss, Americans, and Russians.

[Nets]

I agree, Noemon, but there is no denying certain groups were far more targeted than others. Nazism held particular disdain for Jews, Gypsies, and to an extent Poles. Yes, people of all types suffered under the Nazis and their allies, but you can't deny the Nazis targeted certain groups far more than others, and were particularly succesful against certain groups (Jews) and less succesful against other groups (Slavs).

Comparing the 80% death rate of European Jews with "Mexicans, the Swiss, Spaniards" isn't really a logical comparison.

[peter_co]

“Let us hope the schoolchildren visitors are properly taught about the elegant swimming-pool at Auschwitz, built by the inmates, who would sunbathe there on Saturday and Sunday afternoons while watching the water-polo matches; and shown the paintings from its art class, which still exist; and told about the camp library which had some 45,000 volumes for inmates to choose from, plus a range of periodicals; and the six camp orchestras at Auschwitz/Birkenau, its theatrical performances, including a children’s opera, the weekly camp cinema, and even the special brothel established there.”

I never though any humor could come out of the horrors of the Holocaust, but some of these Holocaust deniers have proven me completely wrong. This idiot makes Auschwitz seem like a nice resort!

[Thunderhawk]

Comparing the 80% death rate of European Jews with "Mexicans, the Swiss, Spaniards" isn't really a logical comparison.

How about other poulations?

1/5 of the Polish population was wiped out.
If you exclude Polish Jews then the fraction drops to ~1/11 with intellectuals (Doctors, Engineers, Professors, priests, etc) as the primary targets.

Lituanians suffered a similar fractional loss. Though I would say they had it worse, as most of the 'good guys' were exterminated by the Nazi and later the Soviets, and their legacy is made by those who survived, largely the collaberators.


These numbers are not very close to the 80% death rate of European Jews, but they too are on a massive scale.

That the death rates of these peoples are dismissed as not being "high" and grouped with peoples whose death rate were not even a percentage point (Americans, Canadians). That act is just as insultful to those populations as it is claiming the Jewish losses were small/exagerated to the Jews.

Only the Soviets are recognized for their large losses, and even they are forgotten or their losses not considered from time to time.

[Potemkin]

I never though any humor could come out of the horrors of the Holocaust, but some of these Holocaust deniers have proven me completely wrong. This idiot makes Auschwitz seem like a nice resort!

Actually, he's simply repeating the Nazi propaganda about Auschwitz which they put out at the time it got into full swing in the early 40s. I've seen a documentary on TV a few year back which showed the Nazi propaganda films which purported to be of Auschwitz. And yes, they did indeed show happy, smiling inmates attending the theatres and cinema, and swimming laps of the Olympic-size swimming pool at Auschwitz. It made the place seem like a rather pleasant holiday resort. This bozo Kollerstrom seems to have seen the same films and believed they were genuine. This is a staggering level of naivety on his part, confusing propaganda with reality. If this guy read the National Enquirer, he would probably believe every word of it.

[Donna]

I wasn't aware that the Nazis even had the opportunity to publically speak about Auschwitz-Birkenau. The German extermination camps were fairly secretive and part of the mechanical success of the Holocaust was the perpetuated notion that the deportations were part of a program of resettlement. Even during the closing days of the war, before any of the death camps were liberated by the Soviets, Zionist leadership (including Ben-Gurion) was unable to assert what was going on exactly with the continental deportations to Poland.

To be honest I don't keep a catalouge of sources, as usually when I find them I don't think "I need to this for POFO" - so you'll need to bear with me whilst I collate some examples. But one particular thing I remember is that some Chief Surgeon general or whatever in the American Army who examined the death camps say there was no evidence of poison gas being used. Hopefully I can find that

This seems a bit odd. Whether at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Chelmno or any other Nazi extermination facility, gas chambers were found with walls caked with blue Zyklon B residue. Countless survivors liberated at death camps spoke of the use of gas, describing in detail what transpired (it took about 20 minutes to kill everything within a chamber packed to its capacity with people). That goes without mentioning the testimony of Rudolf Hoess at Nuremberg regarding his operational duties at Auschwitz.

The Nazis had access to such technology (and even experimented in the archaic stages of the Final Solution using carbon monoxide and diesel fumes before settling with a pesticide) and unless one is denying that the Nazi regime was genocidal in its conquests, it's a bit obtuse to deny gassing took place. Genocide doesn't get any more savvy than that.

[Potemkin]

I wasn't aware that the Nazis even had the opportunity to publically speak about Auschwitz-Birkenau. The German extermination camps were fairly secretive and part of the mechanical success of the Holocaust was the perpetuated notion that the deportations were part of a program of resettlement. Even during the closing days of the war, before any of the death camps were liberated by the Soviets, Zionist leadership (including Ben-Gurion) was unable to assert what was going on exactly with the continental deportations to Poland.

The Nazi concentration camps were huge; it was impossible to hide them from the local population or to conceal them from the general bureaucracy of the Nazi state. What was secretive was the purpose of these camps, not their existence. In fact, the existence of concentration camps was used from the earliest days of the Nazi regime as a means of controlling the population, rather like the existence of the Gulag in Stalin's Russia. Speak out too loudly or do anything against the regime, and you could end up inside Dachau or Buchenwald. But their reputation at that time was as (very unpleasant) prison camps, not death camps. And the overt Nazi propaganda (the 'white' propaganda as opposed to the secret 'black' propaganda) painted these camps as rather relaxing holiday resorts, just as they later portrayed Auschwitz. In other words, the existence of the camps was not hidden; the Nazis actually wanted people to know they existed and to fear them - this made the population easier to control. What was a deep, dark secret was that, from 1941 onwards, they have evolved into death camps, extermination centres.

[Donna]

I wasn't specifically referring to concentration camps, which predated the war and were fairly well known to the world as an extension of Germany's authoritarianism (and unlike the death camps, were also located within Germany and were more numerous), but the extermination camps that were fairly secretive, built during the course of the war and almost exclusively located in rural areas of occupied Poland. Auschwitz II, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno - the main epicenters of the Holocaust - were specifically designed for mass extermination. Those deported to these camps were quickly undressed and gassed while Selektion took place at other, less esoteric concentration camps located around the region.

[W01f]

Actually, he's simply repeating the Nazi propaganda about Auschwitz which they put out at the time it got into full swing in the early 40s. I've seen a documentary on TV a few year back which showed the Nazi propaganda films which purported to be of Auschwitz. And yes, they did indeed show happy, smiling inmates attending the theatres and cinema, and swimming laps of the Olympic-size swimming pool at Auschwitz. It made the place seem like a rather pleasant holiday resort. This bozo Kollerstrom seems to have seen the same films and believed they were genuine. This is a staggering level of naivety on his part, confusing propaganda with reality. If this guy read the National Enquirer, he would probably believe every word of it.

This made my day

What an idiot.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Donald wrote:

Whether at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Chelmno or any other Nazi extermination facility, gas chambers were found with walls caked with blue Zyklon B residue.

I'm not being obtuse but I'd love a link that proves that. The rest of the paragraph its in I agree with 100%, particularly regarding Hoess's boasting of his efficiency at his first trial.

The German extermination camps were fairly secretive and part of the mechanical success of the Holocaust was the perpetuated notion that the deportations were part of a program of resettlement. Even during the closing days of the war, before any of the death camps were liberated by the Soviets, Zionist leadership (including Ben-Gurion) was unable to assert what was going on exactly with the continental deportations to Poland.

Tell that to tonic will you, he seems to get a perverse delight out of blaming anyone but the Nazis (usually the British) for what went on.

As for that spunk bubble of a 'revisionist' doctor, even someone as twisted as he is must know the orchestras were there to lull the new arrivals into a false sense of security prior to their deaths.

[Thunderhawk]

Even during the closing days of the war, before any of the death camps were liberated by the Soviets, Zionist leadership (including Ben-Gurion) was unable to assert what was going on exactly with the continental deportations to Poland.

One should distinguish between "I dont know how they are dieing by the masses" and "I have no clue what is going on" aswell as the range inbetween.

That the "Zionist" leaders didnt know the details is no suprise as I doubt anyone, except perhaps Eichman, knew *all* the details. Though I do find it odd that "Zionist" is being used. There were other groups of people trading information, services, materials, money, etc.. with the Nazis for information on the Jews. The Brits and Soviets probably knew more about what was happening then the Zionists.

[Donna]

Regarding the Holocaust and Zionist leadership, Ben-Gurion knew quite well that Jews were being murdered under Nazi occupation. When it came to death camps, however, he had no knowledge of the exact nature of these facilities - particularly when it came down to the pressing issue as to whether Zionists should lobby the Allied command to assault these camps from the sky (when they were able to).

Though I do find it odd that "Zionist" is being used. There were other groups of people trading information, services, materials, money, etc.. with the Nazis for information on the Jews. The Brits and Soviets probably knew more about what was happening then the Zionists.

World Zionism was merely concerned about the well-being of European Jews.

I'm not being obtuse but I'd love a link that proves that.

I own various books that gallerize the Holocaust, one of them (published by the American Holocaust Museum - The World Must Know) includes various photographs from within Nazi gas chambers, captioning the blue residue left behind from Zyklon B (which came as little blue pellets during the time, as well). I'm assuming this residue was discovered when the gas chambers were in 1945.