[ArtAllm]

@alyster:

... the Russian state left ex Swedish provinces with the same system as they were before. It was ended only in late 19th century.

If the ex Swedish provinces were not under the Russian control, the Prussians would have added them to their state... and the Esti would have become brave Germans.

Learn my histry before you lecture me about it.

What do you mean with “my history”?

The Esti peasants didn’t play any role till the 20th century. They were like the aboriginals in Australia, who talk about “our land”, though they didn’t play any role in the creation of the state, called Australia.

[Lokakyy]

What do you mean with “my history”?

The Esti peasants didn’t play any role till the 20th century. They were like the aboriginals in Australia, who talk about “our land”, though they didn’t play any role in the creation of the state, called Australia.

It is an exaggeration to say that they played no role. And since land does not equal nation nor state, the aboriginals are also quite correct to say "our land".

[ArtAllm]

@Lokakyy:

The Wikipedia must be incorrect in this case.

Well, Rosenberg's first wife was an ethnic Estonian.

Rosenberg was married twice. He married his first wife, Hilda Leesmann, an ethnic Estonian, in 1915...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

Would a man that presumably considered Estonians to be subhuman marry an Estonian woman?



Your arguments do not hold any water.

[alyster]

If the ex Swedish provinces were not under the Russian control, the Prussians would have added them to their state... and the Esti would have become brave Germans.

Russia conquered Baltics from Sweden in Greater Northen war. After that the emperor asked a Baltic German to write a discribtion of the system in Swedish empire and that he did. After that most Swedish time rules were left to be, exept that everyone submit to Russian emperor not Swedish "snow king". What's here so hard to understand?

The Esti peasants didn’t play any role till the 20th century. They were like the aboriginals in Australia, who talk about “our land”, though they didn’t play any role in the creation of the state, called Australia.

Eesti. And it's a name of a country, not the province nor nation.

Estonians played key role untill 13th century and moved on from that in 20th century. BTW Eestimaa kubermang (Estonian province) was only half the size Estonia is today.

Estonians untill awakening persiond hardly ever acknowledge to themselves they were Estonians. Word Estonian wasn't even used in any writting from Latvian Hendric's Cronic untill New Age. Estonians were the people of the land mostly, or like the Baltic German sources say the notorious "non-germans".

Why?

[Lokakyy]

Well, Rosenberg's first wife was an ethnic Estonian.

Would a man that presumably considered Estonians to be subhuman marry an Estonian woman?

Maybe he changed his mind. It isn't impossible you know. I could imagine many people considering their ex-wives subhuman.

Your arguments do not hold any water.

What Rosenberg possibly said is a mere footnote, since we were talking about Nazi racial theory and the East-Baltic classification, something that I have already sourced.

[Maksym]

Alfred Rosenberg was hardly the final voice of Nazi racial policies to conquered peoples and collaborators. The SS and other branches of the German government had other ideas about the “Aryan race”. At the end of the day, the theories of Alfred Rosenberg were never practiced. Instead the Nazi Party implemented more extreme views.

This is emphasized by contrasting the views of Alfred Rosenberg with actual policy in occupied Ukraine. Rosenberg imagined a Varangian stratum existed with Ukrainian Kulaks causing a special attachment to private property and material success in the countryside. Actual policy from the SS took none of the theory into account and proceeded with complete extermination of the local population. All in all, the Nazis implemented Generalplan Ost in the eastern theatre, which did not take into account any of Alfred Rosenberg’s dribble.

As for the Balts, Lithuanians and Latvians, not sure about Estonians, they were marked for extermination since their racial purity was disputable. It was being debated if they should be ethnically cleansed to Asia, as a reward for loyal service, but I personally doubt this ever would come to fruition.

Finally, the Aryans have zero to do with Nordics or west Europeans. The most “Aryan” nations in Europe are East Slavs, due to the migration of Iranian peoples from Central Asia.

[ArtAllm]

@alyster:

Estonians untill awakening persiond hardly ever acknowledge to themselves they were Estonians. Word Estonian wasn't even used in any writting from Latvian Hendric's Cronic untill New Age. Estonians were the people of the land mostly, or like the Baltic German sources say the notorious "non-germans".

I see. Aboriginal Australians still sleep... and maybe will never have any chance to awake, because Anglo-Saxons are not Russians.

[ArtAllm]

@Lokakyy:

What Rosenberg possibly said is a mere footnote, since we were talking about Nazi racial theory and the East-Baltic classification, something that I have already sourced.

So you think that Günther had more influence, than Rosenberg?

Well, not really — Rosenberg was an ideologist behind the national socialist mythology, falling out of favour later. The influence of Rosenberg to the Nazi apparatus after 1939 is in my opinion generally overestimated. More power in the racial matters rested on the "scientists" such as Hans Günther, who subscribed to the concept of East-Baltic race.

Following quotes show that Günther was a small unimportant fish. He was not executed, because he didn’t play any major role in the Third Reich.

Rosenberg was “Nazi Germany's chief racial theorist” till the last days of the Third Reich, and he complained about the bad treatment of Slavs and other people he considered to be Aryans.

According to Wikipedia, the bad treatment of Slavs, Estonians and other Eastern Europeans was a deviation from the Nazi ideology about the “Aryan race”. Rosenberg was executed because he committed crimes against the Jewish people, not against Slavs or Estonians.

In March 1941, he [Günther] was received as an honored guest for the opening conference of Alfred Rosenberg's "Institute for the Study of the Jewish Question". At the conference the obliteration of Jewish identity, or "people death" (Volkstod) of the Jews was discussed. Various proposals were made, including the "pauperization of European Jews and hard labour in massive camps in Poland". Günther's only recorded comment was that the meeting was boring.
[...]
After World War II, Günther was placed in internment camps for three years until it was concluded that, though he was a part of the Nazi system, he was not an instigator of its criminal acts, making him less accountable for the consequences of his actions. The University of Freiburg came to his defence at his post-war trial. Nevertheless, even after Nazi Germany's fall, he did not revise his thinking, denying the Holocaust until his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_F.K._G%C3%BCnther

The organization of these administrative territories led to conflict between Rosenberg and the SS over the treatment of Slavs under German occupation. Rosenberg was appalled at the displacement, enslavement, and sometimes genocide of non-Jews in occupied Eastern countries. As Nazi Germany's chief racial theorist, Rosenberg considered Slavs, though lesser than Germans, to be Aryan. Rosenberg often complained to Hitler and Himmler about the treatment of non-Jewish occupied peoples. He made no complaints about the murders of Jews. At the Nuremberg Trials he claimed to be ignorant of the Holocaust, despite the fact that Leibbrandt and Meyer were present at the Wannsee conference.
[...]
Rosenberg was captured by Allied troops at the end of the war. He was tried at Nuremberg and found guilty of conspiracy to commit crimes against peace; planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression; war crimes; and crimes against humanity. He was sentenced to death and executed with other condemned co-defendants at Nuremberg on the morning of October 16, 1946.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

[ArtAllm]

@Maksym:

Alfred Rosenberg was hardly the final voice of Nazi racial policies to conquered peoples and collaborators. The SS and other branches of the German government had other ideas about the “Aryan race”.

So who were the authors of these other ideas? Please give us the names of the persons that were executed at Nurenberg for these other theories that led to the bad treatment of Slavs, Estonians and other Eastern European people.


BTW, there were not only Estonian, but also Ukrainian SS-Divisions.

Do you really believe that "non-Aryans" were accepted to SS?

.

[alyster]

I see. Aboriginal Australians still sleep... and maybe will never have any chance to awake, because Anglo-Saxons are not Russians.

I doubt that Estonian rather luck to be independet is caused by the fact that we have Russians for the next door neibhours. It's rather luck that history has played itself so kindly - giving us a chance to build up our republic twice. It only has happened and probably only chace when it happens is when Germany and Russia both are weak - like after WW1 and in early 1990s. Aboriginals haven't been so lucky. To be honest Estonian indpendence's greatest cause dates back to 1816 and 1819 when Estonian farmers were freed from serfdom. (It did take longer time and wasn't even complete by 1918 to get free from the influence of the nobles, because they owned all the land). It was followed by cultural awekening, WW1 and quite rear situation after WW1. Had one thing in the bigger picture gone wrong from the massive chain like October Revolution would have failed, I'd be speaking Russian.

BTW, there were not only Estonian, but also Ukrainian SS-Divisions.

Do you really believe that "non-Aryans" were accepted to SS?

I posted all bunch of SS divisions to you, however which SS are you talking about?

Himmler only had to take one look at the stats of Germany and its oponents to relise how much he wanted to recruit non-aryans.

[ArtAllm]

@alyster:

Had one thing in the bigger picture gone wrong from the massive chain like October Revolution would have failed, I'd be speaking Russian.

I bet that your Russian is better than your English.

I posted all bunch of SS divisions to you, however which SS are you talking about?

I am looking for SS divisions with Arabs, Turks or Japanese.

[Maksym]

So who were the authors of these other ideas? Please give us the names of the persons that were executed at Nurenberg for these other theories that led to the bad treatment of Slavs, Estonians and other Eastern European people.

Try starting with Himmler as an author! Do I need to explain who was in charge of the SS? Your second question is just a straw man, waste of breath. Posting some quote from wikipedia over and over, does nothing to change the fact nobody aggress with you.

What is the deal with using wikipedia to push the “Nordic theory”? Plus outdated anthropology and racial ideas of the Aryan race from turn of the last century?

BTW, there were not only Estonian, but also Ukrainian SS-Divisions.

Do you really believe that "non-Aryans" were accepted to SS?

Yep, the Waffen SS degenerated fast and deep by the time the war was going down hill after Kursk. The fact alone the number of members increased by 1000% to two million, demonstrates the structure no longer cared about racial purity but raw recruitment for the war effort.

[ArtAllm]

@Maksym:

What is the deal with using wikipedia to push the “Nordic theory”?

Well, I am using Wikipedia because it is considered to be “political correct”. There are loads of other sources, but some people may consider them to be political incorrect.

Plus outdated anthropology and racial ideas of the Aryan race from turn of the last century?

Well, this was the when Nazi ideology was formed. The Nazis couldn’t use a time machine, travel to the year 2007 and learn about the today racial ideas.

Try starting with Himmler as an author! Do I need to explain who was in charge of the SS?

So what precisely did Himmler say about this issue.

Yep, the Waffen SS degenerated fast and deep by the time the war was going down hill after Kursk.

The first multinational SS division was created in 1940, the Kursk battle was in July 1943.

It seems that you missed your history classes.

In late 1940, the creation of a multinational SS division, the Wiking, was authorised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

In June 1941 the Finnisches Freiwilligen Bataillon der Waffen-SS was formed from Finnish volunteers. After training this formation was attached to regiment Nordland in January 1942, further bolstering division strength. About 430 Finns who were veterans of the Winter War served within the Wiking division since the beginning of Operation Barbarossa. In spring 1943 Finnish volunteer battalion was replaced by an Estonian one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Wiking

...the 14th Voluntary Division SS Galizien, and its formation was announced on 28 April 1943.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffe ... _Ukrainian)


The Battle of Kursk or Kursk Campaign (July 4 – July 20, 1943), also called Operation Citadel (German: Unternehmen Zitadelle) by the German Army, was a major battle on the Eastern Front of World War II...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

[alyster]

The first multinational SS division was created in 1940, the Kursk battle was in July 1943

You know, you still haven't produced a single bit of evidence to your wilde claime that Waffen-SS was only for Aryans.

[ArtAllm]

@alyster:

You know, you still haven't produced a single bit of evidence to your wilde claime that Waffen-SS was only for Aryans.

Please reread my message posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:05 pm

[alyster]

You know, you still haven't produced a single bit of evidence to your wilde claime that Waffen-SS was only for Aryans.

Please reread my message posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:05 pm

ˇˇˇˇ

I am looking for SS divisions with Arabs, Turks or Japanese.

So this is your understanding of a source or evidence? Nice going!

[Tally-oh]

The Holocaust was possible because the Neville Chamberlains let the nazis start killing, imprison, and beat the communists, the social democrats, the trade unionists, unchecked. By the time it was the Jews turn all oppostion minded germans where dead or in prison or brainwashed.

[Far-Right Sage]

The Holocaust was possible because the Neville Chamberlains let the nazis start killing, imprison, and beat the communists, the social democrats, the trade unionists, unchecked. By the time it was the Jews turn all oppostion minded germans where dead or in prison or brainwashed.

That's because the former three group who were persecuted were of no loss to civilization.

As for Neville Chamberlain, and I say this in a manner of intense sincerity, he might quite possibly be the most misunderstood, underrated, and unfairly demonized man in the history of world politics.

[Donna]

As for Neville Chamberlain, and I say this in a manner of intense sincerity, he might quite possibly be the most misunderstood, underrated, and unfairly demonized man in the history of world politics.

I hate to turn this into another FRS-Donald head-butt on World War II, but why do you believe Chamberlain to be misunderstood? I will say, he's a victim of historical circumstance as it was truly believed by many that Hitler could be tamed, but for better or for worse, he has come to embody appeasement towards belligerent regimes.

[alyster]

One thing is Chamberlain's belives, other thing is public opinion. In 1938, when the Munich conference took place public opinion was strongly anti war. I havem't seen any public opinion polls prior to 1938 about this topic, but we can guess that they didn't differ much.

Downside of democracy - politicans are manipulated by the ongoing popularity contest.