[Buzz62]

Thunderhawk edit: This thread is a discussion split from another topic. This discussion has far more depth and content then the original thread too



I presented evidence. Evidence documented BY JEWS.
For your reading pleasure...http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm

Now comon...tell us how the documentation provided by Jewish people concerning this issue...is irrelevant.

[wat0n]

Your evidence comes from religious fanatics who believe Zionists are spiritually responsible for the Holocaust for breaking some oaths in the Talmud. Why should I believe them? Are you saying I should believe them only because they are Jews, i.e. that Jews' allegations are worth more than the allegations made by non-Jews? If so, then I guess the rejection by pretty much the rest of world Jewry of these conspiracy theories should carry as much if not more weight than this particular theory, right?

So, what about you provide us with some proper, peer-reviewed academic research on the issue? Or even better, contemporary documents showing evidence of this alleged conspiracy... Interestingly I have not heard of either, so if you want to broaden my horizons I'll be glad to read on the subject

[Buzz62]

Your evidence comes from religious fanatics who believe Zionists are spiritually responsible for the Holocaust for breaking some oaths in the Talmud. Why should I believe them? Are you saying I should believe them only because they are Jews, i.e. that Jews' allegations are worth more than the allegations made by non-Jews? If so, then I guess the rejection by pretty much the rest of world Jewry of these conspiracy theories should carry as much if not more weight than this particular theory, right?

So, what about you provide us with some proper, peer-reviewed academic research on the issue? Or even better, contemporary documents showing evidence of this alleged conspiracy... Interestingly I have not heard of either, so if you want to broaden my horizons I'll be glad to read on the subject

Its a bit more than just the religious implications...which I hadn't even highlighted originally.
But hey...I don't really expect you to be capable of reading the whole site.

Here's another I don't think you'll comprehend...but since you asked...
[cut]

[Zionist Nationalist]

Zionism is mostly a secular movement. before and during the holocaust many rabbies tried to persude Jews to stay in Europe while the Zionists wanted the Jews to come to "Palestine". it is very stupid and ignorant to suggest such thing that the Zionism is responsible to the holocaust you clearly know nothing about this.

you blame the zionism while ignoring the atrocities of Islam and the fact that Muslims killed 10 million Muslims since 1948 please remind me how many Muslims Israel have killed?

[Eran]

Many more than the number of Israelis killed by Muslims.

[Zionist Nationalist]

So whats your point? that we should just let them attack us without responding?

Its good that Israel kills more of them if it was the other way around Israel wouldnt survive.

[Eran]

What was your point in referring to the number of Muslims killed by other Muslims?

My point is that any killing of innocent people is wrong. It doesn't become right because people belonging to the same group as the innocent victim have themselves killed innocents.

Think about this principle for a moment - it is phrased in a completely neutral way. Do you support it?

If you support the principle, than Israel as well as several Palestinian organizations and Arab governments are all guilty of murder, and none of their activities justifies those of the others. The number killed is immaterial.

If you disagree with the principle, what is the basis of condemning Palestinian terrorist attacks on civilians?

Finally, it is possible that you agree with the principle as it applies to non-Jews, but disagree with it as it applies to Jews. In other words, you subscribe to a non-universalizable ethical view-point. I suspect that is the correct answer.

[MVictorP]

So whats your point? that we should just let them attack us without responding?

Its good that Israel kills more of them if it was the other way around Israel wouldnt survive.

Wouldn't that be the good thing, thought? How is Israel any vital for the remainder of the human race? Or even for Jews? Israel brought the world nothing but strife since its inception.

Or are you of the opinion that the bad graft is entitled to reject the whole body?

[layman]

Many more than the number of Israelis killed by Muslims.

Yeah thats because they are rubbish at fighting. Obviously they would kill many more if they could or do you deny that?

On the other hand, the jews could kill many more but don't.

Pretty basic stuff really ....

[Zionist Nationalist]

What was your point in referring to the number of Muslims killed by other Muslims?

My point is that any killing of innocent people is wrong. It doesn't become right because people belonging to the same group as the innocent victim have themselves killed innocents.

Think about this principle for a moment - it is phrased in a completely neutral way. Do you support it?

If you support the principle, than Israel as well as several Palestinian organizations and Arab governments are all guilty of murder, and none of their activities justifies those of the others. The number killed is immaterial.

If you disagree with the principle, what is the basis of condemning Palestinian terrorist attacks on civilians?

Finally, it is possible that you agree with the principle as it applies to non-Jews, but disagree with it as it applies to Jews. In other words, you subscribe to a non-universalizable ethical view-point. I suspect that is the correct answer.

Killing innocent is wrong but if some civilians die from collateral damage I dont see any reason why anyone should be upset its war shit happens. in an area like Gaza its impossibe to avoid civilian casualties especially if the enemy is hiding in civilian population
but Israel did their best and only about 300 civilians killed in cast lead. Hamas themselves admited they lost 700 of their men and they were not the only group that fought against Israel
plus the number of casualties was exagarated by the "palestinians" because its known fact that they tend to lie alot

[Zionist Nationalist]

Wouldn't that be the good thing, thought? How is Israel any vital for the remainder of the human race? Or even for Jews? Israel brought the world nothing but strife since its inception.

OMG what load of crap

Israel invented alot of technologies sent aid to counties like haiti and even Turkey

Israel is much more vital for the Humanity than all of the African countries combined and its much more vital than countries like Syria,Jordan,Yemen and the list goes on..

[Buzz62]

Zionism is mostly a secular movement. before and during the holocaust many rabbies tried to persude Jews to stay in Europe while the Zionists wanted the Jews to come to "Palestine". it is very stupid and ignorant to suggest such thing that the Zionism is responsible to the holocaust you clearly know nothing about this.

you blame the zionism while ignoring the atrocities of Islam and the fact that Muslims killed 10 million Muslims since 1948 please remind me how many Muslims Israel have killed?

Pssst...hey tweedle-dumb...there are several defined types of Zionism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
But to understand that...one has to actually READ things.

The Zionists knew exactly what type of man Hitler was when they began working with him...so yes...they do share a portion of the blame.
Whether YOU happen to like the historical fact or not...is up to you. But to deny historical fact is...well its "tweedle-dumb"?

Yer right though...I DO ignore Muslims killing Muslims.
Ya wanna know why?
'cause they tend to not carry on about it all as much as you Zionists do.
The don't seem to feel the burning need to make the world feel sorry for them.
And...of course...Al Jazeera is not a Zionist owned news media.

So whats your point? that we should just let them attack us without responding?

Its good that Israel kills more of them if it was the other way around Israel wouldnt survive.

Nobody has ever claimed that Israel should not defend itself.
But that Israel has killed more Muslims than Muslims have killed Israelis...is not something to be proud of tweedle-dumb.

OMG what load of crap

Israel invented alot of technologies sent aid to counties like haiti and even Turkey

Israel is much more vital for the Humanity than all of the African countries combined and its much more vital than countries like Syria,Jordan,Yemen and the list goes on..

Since the beginning of Israel, there has been conflict in that area.
So...you happen to be dead wrong yet again.
Yes Israeli scientists have invented some interesting stuff...stuff they probable would have invented just as well in any other country...but the did it in Israel so...for what its worth...you have a point there.
But to say that Israel is much more vital that all African nations combined is...well its plain old Zionist crap...that's what it is. Self-centered Zionist crap.

[wat0n]

Its a bit more than just the religious implications...which I hadn't even highlighted originally.
But hey...I don't really expect you to be capable of reading the whole site.

Here's another I don't think you'll comprehend...but since you asked...
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

Oh god, what part of "peer-reviewed" didn't you understand?

The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an American organization that describes itself as a "public-interest educational, research and publishing center dedicated to promoting greater public awareness of history." Critics have accused it of being an antisemitic "pseudo-scholarly body"[1] with links to neo-Nazi organizations, and assert that its primary purpose is to disseminate views denying key facts of Nazism and the genocide of Jews and others.[2][3][4][5][6] It has been described as the "world's leading Holocaust denial organization."[7][8] The Institute published the non-peer-reviewed Journal of Historical Review until 2002, but now disseminates its materials through its website and via email.

The Institute is affiliated with the Legion for the Survival of Freedom and Noontide Press.[9]

Emphasis was added by me.

Ironically, it is also clear you actually didn't read this article: It never asserted Zionists and Nazis conspired to cause the Holocaust, it only asserted the Nazis supported Jewish settlement in the British Mandate of Palestine (and elsewhere), and as I said in the other thread, given that in the 1930s Germany was seen as a legitimate actor in the international system and the West (including the US and the UK) the Zionists faced the dilemma of opposing Germany with a small chance of success or adopt a more pragmatic stance in the issue and try to help as many German Jews to leave Germany as possible.

Not only this but it also makes patently false claims such as:

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, maintained that anti-Semitism is not an aberration, but a natural and completely understandable response by non-Jews to alien Jewish behavior and attitudes.

...Even though it is clear Herzl did see anti-Semitism as an aberration, one that couldn't be stopped:

But I do not wish to take up the cudgels for the Jews in this pamphlet. It would be useless. Everything rational and everything sentimental that can possibly be said in their defence has been said already. If one's hearers are incapable of comprehending them, one is a preacher in a desert. And if one's hearers are broad and high-minded enough to have grasped them already, then the sermon is superfluous. I believe in the ascent of man to higher and yet higher grades of civilization; but I consider this ascent to be desperately slow. Were we to wait till average humanity had become as charitably inclined as was Lessing when he wrote "Nathan the Wise," we should wait beyond our day, beyond the days of our children, of our grandchildren, and of our great-grandchildren. But the world's spirit comes to our aid in another way.

...

The Jewish question still exists. It would be foolish to deny it. It is a remnant of the Middle Ages, which civilized nations do not even yet seem able to shake off, try as they will. They certainly showed a generous desire to do so when they emancipated us. The Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist, it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. This is the case in every country, and will remain so, even in those highly civilized—for instance, France—until the Jewish question finds a solution on a political basis. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of Anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America.

I believe that I understand Anti-Semitism, which is really a highly complex movement. I consider it from a Jewish standpoint, yet without fear or hatred. I believe that I can see what elements there are in it of vulgar sport, of common trade jealousy, of inherited prejudice, of religious intolerance, and also of pretended self-defence. I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one, notwithstanding that it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, which can only be solved by making it a political world-question to be discussed and settled by the civilized nations of the world in council.

We are a people—one people.

We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow-citizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those whose ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering. The majority may decide which are the strangers; for this, as indeed every point which arises in the relations between nations, is a question of might. I do not here surrender any portion of our prescriptive right, when I make this statement merely in my own name as an individual. In the world as it now is and for an indefinite period will probably remain, might precedes right. It is useless, therefore, for us to be loyal patriots, as were the Huguenots who were forced to emigrate. If we could only be left in peace....

But I think we shall not be left in peace.

Oppression and persecution cannot exterminate us. No nation on earth has survived such struggles and sufferings as we have gone through. Jew-baiting has merely stripped off our weaklings; the strong among us were invariably true to their race when persecution broke out against them. This attitude was most clearly apparent in the period immediately following the emancipation of the Jews. Those Jews who were advanced intellectually and materially entirely lost the feeling of belonging to their race. Wherever our political well-being has lasted for any length of time, we have assimilated with our surroundings. I think this is not discreditable. Hence, the statesman who would wish to see a Jewish strain in his nation would have to provide for the duration of our political well-being; and even a Bismarck could not do that.

For old prejudices against us still lie deep in the hearts of the people. He who would have proofs of this need only listen to the people where they speak with frankness and simplicity: proverb and fairy-tale are both Anti-Semitic. A nation is everywhere a great child, which can certainly be educated; but its education would, even in most favorable circumstances, occupy such a vast amount of time that we could, as already mentioned, remove our own difficulties by other means long before the process was accomplished.

Assimilation, by which I understood not only external conformity in dress, habits, customs, and language, but also identity of feeling and manner—assimilation of Jews could be effected only by intermarriage. But the need for mixed marriages would have to be felt by the majority; their mere recognition by law would certainly not suffice.

The Hungarian Liberals, who have just given legal sanction to mixed marriages, have made a remarkable mistake which one of the earliest cases clearly illustrates; a baptized Jew married a Jewess. At the same time the struggle to obtain the present form of marriage accentuated distinctions between Jews and Christians, thus hindering rather than aiding the fusion of races.

Those who really wished to see the Jews disappear through intermixture with other nations, can only hope to see it come about in one way. The Jews must previously acquire economic power sufficiently great to overcome the old social prejudice against them. The aristocracy may serve as an example of this, for in its ranks occur the proportionately largest numbers of mixed marriages. The Jewish families which regild the old nobility with their money become gradually absorbed. But what form would this phenomenon assume in the middle classes, where (the Jews being a bourgeois people) the Jewish question is mainly concentrated? A previous acquisition of power could be synonymous with that economic supremacy which Jews are already erroneously declared to possess. And if the power they now possess creates rage and indignation among the Anti-Semites, what outbreaks would such an increase of power create? Hence the first step towards absorption will never be taken, because this step would involve the subjection of the majority to a hitherto scorned minority, possessing neither military nor administrative power of its own. I think, therefore, that the absorption of Jews by means of their prosperity is unlikely to occur. In countries which now are Anti-Semitic my view will be approved. In others, where Jews now feel comfortable, it will probably be violently disputed by them. My happier co-religionists will not believe me till Jew-baiting teaches them the truth; for the longer Anti-Semitism lies in abeyance the more fiercely will it break out. The infiltration of immigrating Jews, attracted to a land by apparent security, and the ascent in the social scale of native Jews, combine powerfully to bring about a revolution. Nothing is plainer than this rational conclusion.

Likewise, it also claims Lehi was a "small but important" movement in the Yishuv:

In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.

...But this is clearly an overstatement of Lehi's importance:

Initially called the National Military Organization in Israel,[3] it was the smallest and most radical of Mandatory Palestine's three Zionist paramilitary groups (Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi), and never had more than a few hundred members. Lehi split from the Irgun in 1940 and by 1948 was identified with both religious Zionism (although most members were not Orthodox Jews) and left-wing nationalism (despite most members wanting to remain politically unaligned).[4][5]

It is clear from this it was a small and extremist militia that had little support in the Yishuv. It is also important to note their support for the Nazis was seen as treason by the rest of the Jewish community in Mandate Palestine (the letter was made public).

[MVictorP]

Israel invented alot of technologies sent aid to counties like haiti and even Turkey

Israel is much more vital for the Humanity than all of the African countries combined and its much more vital than countries like Syria,Jordan,Yemen and the list goes on..

Oh. I thought Israel was a vaccuum of worldy ressources used to promote segregation at the end of a bayonet for the benefits of the Chosen Ones. It is, I know that now, a shinning, empathic beacon for all of humanity. Like Nazi Germany was, I guess.

The countries you named may not be vital, but they do have the excuse to be natural countries, instead of erzatz ones.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Exchange 1000 men for 1 Israeli soldier is a thing that they shouldnt be proud of or exploding people in buses and resturaunts is something not to be proud of.
they dont value their lives they allways express their desire of sacrificing themselves they glorify death and they admit it. so I dont see any problem with the fact that Israel kills them more.

Yer right though...I DO ignore Muslims killing Muslims.
Ya wanna know why?
'cause they tend to not carry on about it all as much as you Zionists do.
The don't seem to feel the burning need to make the world feel sorry for them.
And...of course...Al Jazeera is not a Zionist owned news media

are you sure? and what about palywood? they Palestinians are masters of making the world feel sorry for them and ignoring atrocities in other places Africa

[wat0n]

The countries you named may not be vital, but they do have the excuse to be natural countries, instead of erzatz ones.

Wow, so besides being a denier of the crimes of French colonialists in Canada, you also see Israel as an inferior country? Seems like your French supremacism is becoming more overt.

Congratulations on finally being honest, I hate when racists try to cloak their racism in rhetoric

[Regulatory Capture]

OMG what load of crap

Israel invented alot of technologies sent aid to counties like haiti and even Turkey

Israel is much more vital for the Humanity than all of the African countries combined and its much more vital than countries like Syria,Jordan,Yemen and the list goes on..

Africa is a mess, primarily due to western hands, so comparing Israel and Africa is a waste of time. Alas nothing lasts forever and the Africans will get their act together. Back to the issue, hopefully the Americans will one day realise the Israeli's are nothing more than a burden to them and a bunch of parasites.

[Buzz62]

Exchange 1000 men for 1 Israeli soldier is a thing that they shouldnt be proud of or exploding people in buses and resturaunts is something not to be proud of.
they dont value their lives they allways express their desire of sacrificing themselves they glorify death and they admit it. so I dont see any problem with the fact that Israel kills them more.

Dude...you TOOK their homes! Their land! Hell anyone would be pissed off. And it appears this is something the Israeli leadership absolutely refuses to acknowledge.
Now you may make all sorts of excuses for this..."it was the UN who did that"...or..."It was a colony and thus wasn't THEIR'S to begin with" hell I've heard them all.
But try convincing a Palestinian of this. Try telling a Palestinian that it was never really "their home or their land".
Dude...that will never fly.

are you sure? and what about palywood? they Palestinians are masters of making the world feel sorry for them and ignoring atrocities in other places Africa

I have no idea what "palywood" is. Nor do I think the Palestinians would appreciate being called "Palestinians".
But consider...if you will...the lengths Israelis go to in order to generate sympathy...and lets face it...YOU are the aggressors!

What is lacking...as I see it...is UNDERSTANDING and EMPATHY.
On both sides.
Unfortunately...as the aggressors, it is probably up to the Israelis to offer the first "fig leaf".
To be the mature ones and say..."OK, we gained your land against your will. We understand your anger, and we empathize with you. Let's start fresh. We'll remove our settlements and return the land we've taken illegally. You quit lobbing explosives at us. Then we'll discuss the rest of the issues and find common ground to work from. If our hard-liners break the rules...you have our permission to deal with them in a legal and humane fashion. Like-wise, if YOUR people get outta line, we will deal with them in our court system."

And ya know what...just the acknowledgment of the situation and bad feelings...would probably go A LONG WAY to calming the entire situation.
But when you consistently say things like, "better to kill more Muslims than Israelis"...or "the settlements are our's because the whole land is our's"...up go the walls and down come the explosives.

[Zionist Nationalist]

I dont agree that Israel is the agressor. a good example of that is the fact that despite the ceasfire that was agreed after the clashes in Gaza in the recent days dozens of rockets were sent into Israel without a proper reason. also sending rockets for a decade from Gaza to Israel definetly not gonna help the peace procces. Israel alredy went out from Gaza and in exchange got more terror.

[Maas]

I dont agree that Israel is the agressor. a good example of that is the fact that despite the ceasfire that was agreed after the clashes in Gaza in the recent days dozens of rockets were sent into Israel without a proper reason. also sending rockets for a decade from Gaza to Israel definetly not gonna help the peace procces. Israel alredy went out from Gaza and in exchange got more terror.

Ironically, the most agressive part of the Palestinian land has been rewarded with collonists packing their bags.
While the part that cooperate the mosts, is loosing more and more land every year, get people kidnapt by Israel and locked up without any trial.