[Independent_Srpska]

Do you have an actual target list? That one tank was hit actually demonstrates the difficulty NATO forces had in destroying military targets. While the Serbian posters can beat their chests about their clever use of camoflague etc. I don't do your argument much good.

Do you have an actual target list? Do you have an actual bombing result list?

What were the factories producing out of interest?

Indeed, what?

Given the role Serbian state controlled media played in the Bosnian genocide, I don't think this is particularly exceptional.

Oh, really?! Could you be more specific, or you've been just saying "big" words without any sense?
Gee...is this statement of yours kind of justification for murdering of journalists? So, journalists in Belgrade were guilty (and sentenced to death) because of some imaginary actions in the past did by some unknown persons that might be of a Serb origin?...do I smell Nazism? Oh, yes I do....
BTW, why did NATO bomb Chinese Embassy in Belgrade? Do you find it exceptional or you find Chinese guilty for, let's say, not-easily- giving-away Hong Kong territory to British colonialists?

Srebrenica and Sarajevo were not lies.

Is that all you know about the war in ex-Yugoslavia? You are pretty limited then....

Do you have any proof that destruction of the Serbian economy was really the motive? If NATO countries are so opposed to state intervention in the economy, why do they all continue to trade with (and militarily support) other nations who do exactly the same thing?

And these two statements/thoughts should be interconnected somehow, right???

I never compared the situation in Kosovo to a genocide. Ethnic cleansing after all is different to genocide and doesn’t necessarily require people be killed. How many Albanians were displaced by the Serbian military?

How many Serbs were displaced by the Squips terrorists?

Great, so no mass graves, just more little graves? I guess this answers the question posted in your first news report as to where the bodies are.

Are you sure you did not miss the part stating:"...where the KLA separatists had been active..."?

Is Pilger’s message supposed to be ‘don’t bother about less than 3,000 deaths’?

I don't think so...But, the point might be something like this:"NATO's presumptions for an illegal aggression against one sovereign state were completely fabricated...."....basically, that course of NATO-fascists action was the mother of "Weapons for Mass Destruction" in Iraq...the same "tactics" worked in civil war in Bosnia and Hercegovina (that was the father of WMDs), it worked in Kosmet case - was there any doubt "the child" wouldn't work in Iraq? (but, somebody was caught red handed fabricating WMDs in Iraq....has anything been changed after NATO acknowledged the fabrication of the Iraq reports??...nothing, of course....Has anything changed after Finish Forensics admitted OSCE chief in Kosovo fabricated the results in Racak case (which was the "initial reason" for NATO fascists to start bombing bridges and trains in Serbia)? ...nope....
....Has anything changed after the UN mission in Bosnia and Hercegovina caught BH-Muslims red handed in shooting at their own people trying to accuse Serbs for that? ....nope....NATO-fascists had their own agenda - it was not connected with the situation in the field, nor with the brainwashing media reports served to the NATO countries audience....

[Smilin' Dave]

Do you have an actual target list? Do you have an actual bombing result list?

Did you look at Rabble Rouser's link?

Indeed, what?

I don't know. Do you have an accurate list?

Oh, really?! Could you be more specific, or you've been just saying "big" words without any sense?
Gee...is this statement of yours kind of justification for murdering of journalists? So, journalists in Belgrade were guilty (and sentenced to death) because of some imaginary actions in the past did by some unknown persons that might be of a Serb origin?...do I smell Nazism? Oh, yes I do....

Is there an argument in there, or was this just a confused jumble of name calling?

BTW, why did NATO bomb Chinese Embassy in Belgrade? Do you find it exceptional or you find Chinese guilty for, let's say, not-easily- giving-away Hong Kong territory to British colonialists?

That's the stupiest conspiracy theory in this whole thread. Contragulations. If you wanted a conspiracy theory, why not the one presented by Rabble Rouser (retaliation for the use of laser blinding devices), or the one about Chinese radar systems being used to down NATO bombers?

Me, I'd much rather blame sheer incompetance. Never blame a conspiracy when the explanation might lie in good old fashioned stupidity.

Is that all you know about the war in ex-Yugoslavia? You are pretty limited then....

Perhaps you can list some more Serbian atrocities? Or are we still stuck with the odd argument that other groups were doing horrible things, so the Serbs should have been allowed a free pass? It’s truly bizarre that you can both use moral equivalency, then try to claim the moral high ground by highlighting the offences of others.

And these two statements/thoughts should be interconnected somehow, right???

That was the point. What precisely don’t you understand?

How many Serbs were displaced by the Squips terrorists?

Ah, there’s that moral relativism I mentioned.

Is squip some kind of Balkan ethnic slur? That seems to be the context in which you use it, so I just thought I would check first.

Are you sure you did not miss the part stating:"...where the KLA separatists had been active..."?

I imagine atrocities involving Albanians would tend to happen in Albanian dominated areas (what would be the point of Serb paramilitaries executing civilians if it wasn’t in the theatre of conflict?), so what is your point?

I don't think so...But, the point might be something like this:"NATO's presumptions for an illegal aggression against one sovereign state were completely fabricated...."....basically, that course of NATO-fascists action was the mother of "Weapons for Mass Destruction" in Iraq...the same "tactics" worked in civil war in Bosnia and Hercegovina (that was the father of WMDs

WMDs in Iraq is a poor comparison. Mass graves were found in Bosnia, and graves were found in Kosovo. No WMDs were found. So one was fabricated/wrong, the other two not and was indeed vindicated on the ground.

Has anything changed after the UN mission in Bosnia and Hercegovina caught BH-Muslims red handed in shooting at their own people trying to accuse Serbs for that?

That’s interesting. Do you have a source for that?

[Independent_Srpska]

Did you look at Rabble Rouser's link?

ANd this should be an answer?

I don't know. Do you have an accurate list?

So, do you have an argument for bombing factories like a couple of hundreds kilometers away from the conflict area?

That's the stupiest conspiracy theory in this whole thread. Contragulations. If you wanted a conspiracy theory, why not the one presented by Rabble Rouser (retaliation for the use of laser blinding devices), or the one about Chinese radar systems being used to down NATO bombers?

Me, I'd much rather blame sheer incompetance. Never blame a conspiracy when the explanation might lie in good old fashioned stupidity.

Yep. It sounds almost stupid like justifying murders of journalists in Belgrade, don't you think?

Perhaps you can list some more Serbian atrocities? Or are we still stuck with the odd argument that other groups were doing horrible things, so the Serbs should have been allowed a free pass? It’s truly bizarre that you can both use moral equivalency, then try to claim the moral high ground by highlighting the offences of others.

Oh, yeah, I can list many atrocities by various sides....can you, that is the question? Or your limits trouble you?

That was the point. What precisely don’t you understand?

Humm, if your point is stupid - then you've got a point...

Ah, there’s that moral relativism I mentioned.

Nope...that was a simple question, just to see your ability to comprehend the facts....

Is squip some kind of Balkan ethnic slur? That seems to be the context in which you use it, so I just thought I would check first.

Nope. That's how the people in Kosmet call THEMSELVES...is it too difficult for you to google it?

I imagine atrocities involving Albanians would tend to happen in Albanian dominated areas (what would be the point of Serb paramilitaries executing civilians if it wasn’t in the theatre of conflict?), so what is your point?

well, the point might be in secessionist actions which were not really in accordance to law...what do you think of that?

WMDs in Iraq is a poor comparison. Mass graves were found in Bosnia, and graves were found in Kosovo. No WMDs were found. So one was fabricated/wrong, the other two not and was indeed vindicated on the ground.

Nope. It's not a poor comparison.
Mass graves were never an issue - they were there from the very beginning. That was not the reason for NATO fascists to attack only one side in the conflict. (Basically, the mass graves were found in Iraq, too...no one mentioned them, they needed something more lavish - like WMDs).
However, what if I prove to you that the first victims in mass graves in all the conflicts were Serbs? Would you ask yourself why did not NATO attack anybody but Serbs? Or would you ask yourself why NATO helped Croats to put Serbs in mass graves in 1995? Or would you ask yourself why NATO was looking how Squips in Kosmet kill Serbs in front of their eyes?
I seriously doubt you would like to change the picture you got by being brainwashed...

That’s interesting. Do you have a source for that?

Yes, indeed it is interesting. Yes I have sources for that.
I am glad you did not ask about Racak case - I am happy you are familiar with that WMD-type of fabrication

[Stipe]

It would be spelled Shqip, actually, and that's the name of the language in Albanian - not people.

[Independent_Srpska]

well, yes, it's a name of the language, but having worked with some Shquips - I learned from them it is interchangeable in colloquial English - I mean they called themselves Shquips, I did not invent that, nor I find it insulting...they don't find it insulting - which is more important....a Shquip is a shorter version of official name in Shquip language - which is --> Shquiptar ((Å iptar) which is easier for me, as I am used to that name , but it is not easier for the people not familiar with that term)....

In Shquip language the name of Albania is - Shquiperia.....---> (from wiki) ---> Albania en-us-Albania.ogg /ælˈbeɪniə/ (help·info), officially the Republic of Albania (Albanian: Republika e Shqipërisë, pronounced [ɾɛˈpublika ɛ ʃcipəˈɾiːsa], or simply Shqipëria, Gheg Albanian: Shqipnija, Shqypnia), is a country in South Eastern Europe.

[Stipe]

There's no u in it.

[Smilin' Dave]

ANd this should be an answer?

I'll take that as a no then.

So, do you have an argument for bombing factories like a couple of hundreds kilometers away from the conflict area?

Were they manufacturing goods for the military or State? I don't know if they were (I was hoping you could clear that up), but that would be a valid argument surely?

Yep. It sounds almost stupid like justifying murders of journalists in Belgrade, don't you think?

Stupid would be going to war and then exempting targets on the basis that they are civilian, even though they are state run and used for militant purposes. I think that stretches the definition of civilian to breaking point, your milage may vary.

Oh, yeah, I can list many atrocities by various sides....can you, that is the question?

No, I've seen examples of your moral relativism/national chauvanism mix, I don't need more examples.

Or your limits trouble you?

Humm, if your point is stupid - then you've got a point...

Are you here to debate, or sling mud? Grow up.

Nope...that was a simple question, just to see your ability to comprehend the facts

More evasions.

Nope. That's how the people in Kosmet call THEMSELVES...is it too difficult for you to google it?

Since it clearly wasn’t that difficult for you to explain it, why should I?

well, the point might be in secessionist actions which were not really in accordance to law...what do you think of that?

So it is okay for paramilitaries to murder people to stop a secessionist movement? You do realise this argument can be applied to all those other examples you try to drag into this argument? For example you could raise Croat atrocities, and I could just say they were fighting an illegal secessionist movement. LAz’s example of the Kurds? Secessionists.

Mass graves were never an issue - they were there from the very beginning.

Good thing too, I would hate to think NATO supplied them afterwards.

Basically, the mass graves were found in Iraq, too...no one mentioned them, they needed something more lavish - like WMDs

Iraqi atrocities against the Kurds and Shia population were in fact promoted in the lead up to the war.

However, what if I prove to you that the first victims in mass graves in all the conflicts were Serbs? Would you ask yourself why did not NATO attack anybody but Serbs? Or would you ask yourself why NATO helped Croats to put Serbs in mass graves in 1995? Or would you ask yourself why NATO was looking how Squips in Kosmet kill Serbs in front of their eyes?

I would ask why you seek to distract from mass graves created by Serbs. I would ask why you think it was okay, or simply not worth discussing Serbian atrocities.

Yes, indeed it is interesting. Yes I have sources for that.

Do you intend to show me that source? Give me some names at least.

[Independent_Srpska]

I'll take that as a no then.

Cool, with me...It makes no difference on your brainwashed side, though....

Were they manufacturing goods for the military or State? I don't know if they were (I was hoping you could clear that up), but that would be a valid argument surely?

Ah, ok....then, bombing bridges might be a valid argument, too....well, bridges were used for transport of the military or they might have been used for that....and yes, civilian trains were bombed because they might had been used for transport of propaganda material, the Chinese embassy was bombed because they watched Serbian TV, civilian houses and people in them were flatten down by NATO cluster bombs because the children might grow up and become the military, depleted uranium was spread around for the same reason - i mean in order to prevent kids to grow up....then, yes - it was ok to bomb car factories, dish factories, TV stations....yep, sick people can find many reasons to justify crimes....

Stupid would be going to war and then exempting targets on the basis that they are civilian, even though they are state run and used for militant purposes. I think that stretches the definition of civilian to breaking point, your milage may vary.

Hummm, let me repeat the root of this thread...one "smart" guy said this in order to justify NATO bombing of TV station in Serbia in 1999:"Given the role Serbian state controlled media played in the Bosnian genocide, I don't think this is particularly exceptional."....so, we have many dimensions/lies of this stupidity of yours...so, I would like clarification of all of them in the light of your statement above, beginning with the "role" of Serbian media, then what is "bosnia" and what genocide and what is the timeframe that connects all this...ok?

No, I've seen examples of your moral relativism/national chauvanism mix, I don't need more examples.

So, basically - you can speak only about Serb atrocities....I thought so...so, you are limited, in fact you are brainwashed, i.e. programmed to twist the facts around....excellent follower

So it is okay for paramilitaries to murder people to stop a secessionist movement? You do realise this argument can be applied to all those other examples you try to drag into this argument?

I am pretty sure I have never said similar thing, but I can recognize your way of thinking in this statement...the only problematic sign is that you don't give a dam for murdered Serbs, that's pretty cool for you I believe...it's so typical for brainwashed individuals, no surprise ...

For example you could raise Croat atrocities, and I could just say they were fighting an illegal secessionist movement. LAz’s example of the Kurds? Secessionists.

Nope. You should be educated enough to know legal, constitutional and historical frames in all those happenings to speak about them at all....I think you don't have ground for that - you are simply brainwashed....

Good thing too, I would hate to think NATO supplied them afterwards.

Supplied what? Or you are intentionally not thinking of the NATO's way of reaction?

I would ask why you seek to distract from mass graves created by Serbs. I would ask why you think it was okay, or simply not worth discussing Serbian atrocities.

Hummm, correct me if I am wrong, but you are the one who all the time speaks about Serbian atrocities, and you are the one who is on the line of thinking--> "Serbs did atrocities - let's kill them".....I am just trying again to see your way of thinking in the case when Croats did atrocities, when Squips did atrocities, when BH-Muslims did atrocities - what your brain says to you about that? That's a crucial thing in discussion with brainwashed people....So, what your brain says to you if I prove to you that all the FIRST victims of all the conflicts on the soil of ex-Yugoslavia were Serbs? Why your brain says to you:"Croats/Squips/BH-Muslims/Slovenians kill Serbs - that's a cool thing, let them do that, if Serbs respond we will kill Serbs"? I am curious....

Do you intend to show me that source? Give me some names at least.

--> "A few days ago Mr. Boutros Ghali informed me that the projectile which hit the Markale marketplace in Sarajevo was an act of (Bosnian) Muslim provocation". President Mitterrand of France, 1995

--> Classified reports given to the commander of the UN peace keepers, General Satish Nambiar, concluded that it was likely that the army of the Bosnian government in Sarajevo carried out the attack. In fact, they were reported to believe it wasn't a mortar attack at all but a "command-detonated explosion - probably in a can". The impact mark left by the "mortar" on the market square floor was nowhere "near as large as we came to expect with a mortar round lading on a paved surface". This is also supported by another UN commander in Bosnia, General Michael Rose of the British army, who according to his book Dispatch the Bosnian government in Sarajevo shelled their own people to get a military response by NATO against the Bosnian Serbs (The Observer, 28th March 1999). NATO launched air strikes against the Bosnian Serbs as a result of this attack.

--> Thus, US ambassador to the UN, Madeline Albright and the US presidential security advisor Anthony Lake, immediately called for NATO air strikes against the Bosnian Serbs. Yet there were already people claiming that even the UN itself did not suspect the Bosnian Serbs, but this appears to have been suppressed by the Western media, possibly acting under covert British and American pressure, assuming the the whole purpose of the mortar attack was to provide the pretext for NATO military involvement in the Balkans for the first time. If this is not the case, then it is certainly hinted at by the former British Foreign Secretary David Owen in his book Balkan Odyssey (Victor Gollanz, London, 1995):

"People around General Rose never tried to hide the fact that at his meeting with Bosnian Muslim leaders (President Alia Izetbegovic and General Delic) he said that he had just received some information which shows that the mortar bomb did not come from the area under Serb control but from the Muslim part of the city . . ."


-->From example, On 6th June 1996, Yasushi Akashi, UN special envoy for Bosnia, told a German journalist working for DPA in New York, that there was a secret UN report accusing the Bosnian government forces of this massacre. It was claimed that this secret report was passed on to the UN Secretary General, Boutros Boutros Ghali, who did not publish it in the interest of "higher politics". Citing this UN report, B. Volker, a French journalist working for TV TF1 said that the mortar bomb was fired from Bosnian government positions. Volker also quotes the words of President Mitterrand: "A few days ago Mr. Boutros Ghali informed me that the projectile which hit the Markale marketplace in Sarajevo was an act of (Bosnian) Muslim provocation".

-->Another report indicating that the Bosnian Serbs were not responsible for this market place attacks was published in The Sunday Times on October 1st 1995. It claimed that British ammunition experts serving with the UN in Sarajevo had "challenged" key evidence of the attack on the bread market which not only triggered NATO attacks against the Serbs in Bosnia, but turned the tide of the war against them. According to the newspaper, the British experts:

"found no evidence that the Bosnian Serbs had fired the lethal round"

Nora Beloff, writing in her book Yugoslavia: An Avoidable War (New European Publications, London, England, 1997), also allege that "that Bosnian government arranged to kill their own people" so as to get the Bosnian Serbs blamed. She alleges the news reporter Martin Bell, now an independent MP in Britain, had known about these allegations through his contacts with British UN officers but "he ignored what they might have told him". She repeats claims, as reported in David Owen's account of the bombings, that western experts had discovered that it was the Bosnian government forces and not the Bosnian Serbs who had been behind the attack in February 1994. Allegedly, when UNPROFOR wanted the Bosnian government to participate in truce negotiations, the British commander, General Michael Rose:

"Blackmailed the Bosnian Muslim leaders into submission. He told them that unless they agreed to cooperate, he would tell the international press that he had technical expertise proving that the grenade came from the Muslim, not the Serb, side" (Beloff, p112/113).

Other attacks supposedly carried out by the Bosnian government - and blamed on the Bosnian Serbs - include:

* 29th June 1992: Rocket attack on Sarajevo's TV station kills 5 people. Bosnian government troops implicated in this attack (The Sunday Times, October 1st 1995).
* 17th July 1992: A "choreographed" mortar salvo, 30 seconds after British Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd entered a building for a meeting with the Bosnian President, Alija Izetbegovic. The attack killed or wounded 10 bystanders - but not Hurd's guard of honor, who had clearly been forewarned and ducked for cover seconds before the attack.
* 4th August 1992: Bomb attacks which were filmed by the Western film crews at a funeral of two orphans in a cemetery in Sarajevo. The attacks were blamed on the Bosnian Serbs.
* 13th August 1992: After the Yugoslav Prime Minister Milan Panic arrives in Sarajevo airport for a meeting with Izetbegovic, a Bosnian government sniper kills US TV producer David Kaplan. The attacks disrupts the schedule of Panic, and he only manages to spend 20 minutes on the phone with Izetbegovic.

Philip Corwen, a senior member of the UN in Bosnia has recently written a book about his experience there (Dubious Mandate: A memoir of the UN in Bosnia, Summer 1995 [Duke, London, UK, 1999]):

"The French forces (the main UN armed force in Sarajevo) were continually harassed, shot at, blocked at, and threatened by Bosnian government forces . . . it was the French who pointed out that the Bosnian government was placing weapons systems next to UN facilities in order to draw fire from Serb artillery onto civilian and UN targets and thus provoke international outrage against the Serbs . .. (p178)

Many more....

Let me add this interesting food for brainwashed thoughts....(Just FYI, the interview is from the BH-MUslim newspaper, by a BH-Muslim, no "Serb propaganda" involved...)

http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani2.html

That was the time of the Bosniak Convention, where a decision was being made on the peace plan and the division of Bosnia. We were received there by President Izetbegovic, and immediately after the welcome he asked us: "What do you think about the swap of Srebrenica for Vogosca [a Sarajevo suburb]?" There was a silence for a while and then I said: "Mr. President, if this is a done thing, then you should not have invited us here, because we have to return and face the people and personally accept the burden of that decision."

So you rejected Izetbegovic's decision?

We rejected it without any discussion. Then he said: "You know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention." Our delegation was composed of nine people, one among us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm this.

Do you know what is the puzzling part of this inhuman "offer" by a big NATO boss?

[QatzelOk]

Smilin' Dave, it's interesting that you moderate this forum and take a keen interest in the Balkans.

Thing is, I posted two newspaper articles in my last post in this thread. The first one talks about the lack of evidence of any kind of genocides, and the second one lists what was bombed.

But you just plowed on through without acknowledging these sources of information - of "facts."

Are you sure you don't just want power and money? And victory at all costs?

[Smilin' Dave]

@Qatz

Smilin' Dave, it's interesting that you moderate this forum and take a keen interest in the Balkans.

I moderate the history forum because of my interest in history. The Balkans have... history! What exactly is your issue here?

Thing is, I posted two newspaper articles in my last post in this thread. The first one talks about the lack of evidence of any kind of genocides

I never said it was a genocide in Kosovo. If I came into one of your threads and used irrelevant points to ‘disprove’ your narrative/thought/whatever, you wouldn’t take it seriously. Similarly, I don’t see what the lack of genocide has to do with disproving a general spectrum of atrocities.

and the second one lists what was bombed.

Actually, it’s not a complete list, for example where are the bridges that were blown up, or the trucks? It’s not very specific. Simply how a factory is run doesn’t tell me what it produces.

You are either unable to understand these basic differences, or choose not to see them. You label me blind? At least I can explain what I believe and more importantly why.

But you just plowed on through without acknowledging these sources of information - of "facts."

What? I actually quoted from the second source. You either didn’t read my post or you are a very bad liar.

Are you sure you don't just want power and money?

Yes, this highly paid and glamorous job I hold is really just a marvel, it’s all I care about.

And victory at all costs?

Where did I say the bombing of Serbia was a victory?

So having failed to get a free run at me for your personal vendetta, you are resorting to talking around me. Once again you are manufacturing narrative and disregarding information that doesn’t come from people you treat as an elite.

@Srpska

Cool, with me...It makes no difference on your brainwashed side, though

Ah, so information that doesn’t suit you is brainwashing? Maybe the problem is that you are the one suffering from brain washing.

civilian trains were bombed because they might had been used for transport of propaganda material

I would be staggered if the Yugoslav government didn’t use civilian transport to move its troops around in an emergency. If you must invent strawmen, make sure they are weak.

the Chinese embassy was bombed because they watched Serbian TV

Now you are just talking rubbish. It doesn’t really detract from my argument, but it nicely shows the readers what you really are.

it was ok to bomb car factories

Car factories can and do produce material for the military. While I would prefer civilian factories not get bombed, I’m not going to pretend they have no strategic value either.

yep, sick people can find many reasons to justify crimes

Like when your response to Serbian war crimes is to cite war crimes committed by others?

so, we have many dimensions/lies of this stupidity of yours...so, I would like clarification of all of them in the light of your statement above, beginning with the "role" of Serbian media, then what is "bosnia" and what genocide and what is the timeframe that connects all this...ok?

Ah, denial. Let me try on one of your snappy rejoinders: google it.

So, basically - you can speak only about Serb atrocities

In a thread about bombing Serbia and why, its particularly relevant.

I am pretty sure I have never said similar thing

I’ve quoted you saying just that. Don’t deny something in plain text right in front of you... makes you look brainwashed.

the only problematic sign is that you don't give a dam for murdered Serbs

I’ve expressed no feelings about the murder of Serbs what so ever, I’ve discussed practical realities. You on the other hand would seek to reduce the murders of others by metaphorically parading around the corpses of Serbian victims. Yet you label me sick.

Nope. You should be educated enough to know legal, constitutional and historical frames in all those happenings to speak about them at all....I think you don't have ground for that - you are simply brainwashed

How are they different to what was done to the Serbs? Does the fact that the Serbian government appropriated the legacy of Yugoslavia somehow make the execution of all military aged men in an area legitimate?

you are the one who is on the line of thinking--> "Serbs did atrocities - let's kill them".....

Not what I said, I’ll explain it to you real simple, since you obviously have a comprehension problem:
Serbs commit massive atrocities -> Serbs commit more atrocities albeit on a smaller scale -> it is legitimate, though not ideal, to use some force to prevent a return to step one.

So that’s my rationale for this thread. Do you develop a sudden partial blindness as soon as the word Serb appears? Fnord.

I am just trying again to see your way of thinking in the case when Croats did atrocities, when Squips did atrocities, when BH-Muslims did atrocities - what your brain says to you about that?

You don’t get it do you: I would consider the use of measured force to prevent those atrocities too. Dare I suggest the Muslims and Croats were more responsive to more diplomatic means?

So, what your brain says to you if I prove to you that all the FIRST victims of all the conflicts on the soil of ex-Yugoslavia were Serbs?

I don’t think it makes a fucking difference to any of the victims who was first or last. And to outsiders, the argument is similarly hollow.

Ah, so the event you were refering to earlier is the Markale massacre? Your are right, it was reported early in the piece as a Bosnian shelling, but further investigation revealed this to be in error:
http://www.un.org/icty/galic/trialc/jud ... .htm#IIIC2

Then he said: "You know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention.

Ironically your conspiracy theory requires you to admit that an atrocity was committed in Srebrenica. Further for the Muslims to ‘allow’ the attack, one would assume that there were no Muslim troops in the area, undermining your/LAzs argument that the slaughter was legitimate in the face of enemy action.

But, let’s be fair, it’s hearsay. Does Hakija Meholjic have any evidence of these exchanges?
http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani60.html (yes, stop the presses, a link about a non-Serb atrocity)
It would also seem that Meholjic is himself a suspect in atrocities. This makes his testimony dubious, particularly if he appears to be shifting blame.

Now don't stop guys, this is getting to be fun.

[Independent_Srpska]

Ah, so information that doesn’t suit you is brainwashing? Maybe the problem is that you are the one suffering from brain washing.

Nope. Basically what you said is nothing but a first class brainwashing...

I would be staggered if the Yugoslav government didn’t use civilian transport to move its troops around in an emergency. If you must invent strawmen, make sure they are weak.

Well, be staggered....but, after all - we have a brain washed individual admitting that NATO fascists aimed civilian targets...is that an improvement?

Now you are just talking rubbish. It doesn’t really detract from my argument, but it nicely shows the readers what you really are.

Rubbish? Well, if NATO did not bomb Chinese Embassy for watching Serbian TV, why NATO bombed it?

Car factories can and do produce material for the military. While I would prefer civilian factories not get bombed, I’m not going to pretend they have no strategic value either.

As I said, Serbian kids are material for the military, so let kill them all, though you might not prefer that...as mentioned before sick people would find various reason to justify their sickness....

Like when your response to Serbian war crimes is to cite war crimes committed by others?

Nope. As I said before - it is to point out your level of the brainwashing.

Ah, denial. Let me try on one of your snappy rejoinders: google it.

What denial? Correct me if I am wrong - I wanted clarification on your idea to justify bombing of Serbian TV station in 1999 by some alleged "writtings/deeds/or what" in 1995....so, please - clarify it for all of us....I can't google that...

In a thread about bombing Serbia and why, its particularly relevant.

Are you aware there were atrocities committed by all other sides against Serbs in that story?

I’ve quoted you saying just that. Don’t deny something in plain text right in front of you... makes you look brainwashed.

I did not notice that. Please, repeat.

I’ve expressed no feelings about the murder of Serbs what so ever, I’ve discussed practical realities. You on the other hand would seek to reduce the murders of others by metaphorically parading around the corpses of Serbian victims. Yet you label me sick.

Well, yeah, you seem to be sick to me...however, I would like to know what is a "practical reality" for you....
I have never said anything in order to reduce any murders (please quote) - I just want you (and all others) to acknowledge the whole picture...

How are they different to what was done to the Serbs?

How it is different what??

Does the fact that the Serbian government appropriated the legacy of Yugoslavia somehow make the execution of all military aged men in an area legitimate?

What are you talking about? Why would that have any connection with the violent secessionists actions (murders, rapes, ethnic cleansing...) against the constitution and laws?

Not what I said, I’ll explain it to you real simple, since you obviously have a comprehension problem:
Serbs commit massive atrocities -> Serbs commit more atrocities albeit on a smaller scale -> it is legitimate, though not ideal, to use some force to prevent a return to step one.

So that’s my rationale for this thread. Do you develop a sudden partial blindness as soon as the word Serb appears? Fnord.

OK, give me your scale then...I have some massive atrocities for you (made by non-Serbs)...
Well, remember this is your rationale...I believe it will be repeated many times...

You don’t get it do you: I would consider the use of measured force to prevent those atrocities too. Dare I suggest the Muslims and Croats were more responsive to more diplomatic means?

Then how it did not happen in the reality? Do you find it awkward?
What diplomatic means?

I don’t think it makes a fucking difference to any of the victims who was first or last. And to outsiders, the argument is similarly hollow.

Well you don't think correctly. It is more than important who started first especially to outsiders and to families of the victims.

Ah, so the event you were refering to earlier is the Markale massacre? Your are right, it was reported early in the piece as a Bosnian shelling, but further investigation revealed this to be in error:
http://www.un.org/icty/galic/trialc/jud ... .htm#IIIC2

There were more events mentioned...however, I could not find anything in this link stating it was an error (please quote)...

Ironically your conspiracy theory requires you to admit that an atrocity was committed in Srebrenica.

Was that an issue ever?? Please quote where I denied atrocities in Srebrenica? Or any other atrocities committed by Serbs?
Besides that, quote where did you mention any atrocity committed over Serbs...

Further for the Muslims to ‘allow’ the attack, one would assume that there were no Muslim troops in the area, undermining your/LAzs argument that the slaughter was legitimate in the face of enemy action.

Are you out of your mind, or what?

But, let’s be fair, it’s hearsay. Does Hakija Meholjic have any evidence of these exchanges?

If you have read everything - you could have seen that he had mentioned several witnesses...but, the best idea for you would be to ask him personally...he is still in Srebrenica....

It would also seem that Meholjic is himself a suspect in atrocities.

Why?

This makes his testimony dubious, particularly if he appears to be shifting blame.

He does not shift anything, don't be ridiculous, he has no blame in atrocities done by Serbs. Why would he invent such a story?

After all, what do you think about the big NATO boss (USA president) who offers something like a massacre of 5.000 people in exchange for a military intervention?
And what do you think about the "president" of the BH-Muslim people who calmly takes such "offers" in consideration and even pass it on to further consideration?
What do you think what they are capable of after you hear something like this?

[QatzelOk]

Smilin' Dave, I think you are trying to replace serious, open-minded discussion with partisan, ideological hair-splitting.

When you quoted one of the articles I provided, you simply turned around to say, "So there were no mass graves. There were lots of little graves."

Here, you weren't arguing against Qatzel Ok, that gay Moslem idiot from PoFo. You were arguing against a Canadian forensics team that was sent to (former) Yugoslavia to investigate war crimes during Milosovic's "trial." Guess what? They found no evidence of ethnic cleansing whatsoever.

A week later, Milosovic was murdered. Gangland justice.

And yet you keep towing the same ideological line against Serbia, Milosovic, and NATO's critics. Why? Do you own one of those formerly cooperative factories?

I don’t see what the lack of genocide has to do with disproving a general spectrum of atrocities

That General Spectrum was brought to you by General Motors and General Electric. The forensic report seemed to prove that Milosovic was innocent, and than NATO had committed the war crimes. That's fairly significant in this thread.

[Smilin' Dave]

@Qatz

Smilin' Dave, I think you are trying to replace serious, open-minded discussion with partisan, ideological hair-splitting.

Ah, so you either made up my position (hence why you keep claiming I labelled Kosovo a genocide, a much easier proposition for you to disprove), or didn’t follow it. I correct you on this, and I’m “splitting hairs”.

When you quoted one of the articles I provided, you simply turned around to say, "So there were no mass graves. There were lots of little graves."

Is that not exactly what was said in the article?

Here, you weren't arguing against Qatzel Ok, that gay Moslem idiot from PoFo.

I have never called you an idiot. I’ve accused you of a lot of things but I’m pretty sure I’ve never denigrated your intelligence. Nor have I ever made light of your religion or sexual preference. So why raise this then? It’s like your insistence of dragging my mod status into the argument when I haven’t actually had to moderate this thread, or even threaten to.

If you want to play the victim, let’s remember you initiated this discussion, and you haven’t corrected my belief that you called me (with somewhat more wit) a little retard.

You were arguing against a Canadian forensics team that was sent to (former) Yugoslavia to investigate war crimes during Milosovic's "trial." Guess what? They found no evidence of ethnic cleansing whatsoever.

Ethnic cleansing is primarily about displacing populations, not killing people. Murder and even genocide can be a tool for ethnic cleansing, but they are not the goal. Hence the lack of mass graves does not disprove ethnic cleansing as an explanation.

A week later, Milosovic was murdered. Gangland justice.

As far as I know, that is still being investigated. I personally think there is a lack of strong motive for a murder to be accepted. Why bother murdering Milosevic before he could complete his trial? If he had anything troublesome to say, he could have said it during the pre-hearing stages.

And yet you keep towing the same ideological line against Serbia, Milosovic, and NATO's critics.

How is labelling the NATO bombing incompetent, even stupid, toeing the line? You appear to be arguing against a stance that I have not exhibited in this thread. See above about “splitting hairs”.

Why? Do you own one of those formerly cooperative factories?

Did you used to own it? Is that your stake in the discussion? What precisely makes my willingness to disagree with Serb-o-philes illegitimate, while you are apparently beyond question?

That General Spectrum was brought to you by General Motors and General Electric.

Actually I think genocide and ethnic cleansing are defined by the UN. Srpska labels positions he doesn’t like fascist, you drag in corporations.

The forensic report seemed to prove that Milosovic was innocent

Even if we accept that Milosevic was innocent in Kosovo, that report doesn’t make him innocent of what he supported in Bosnia.

and than NATO had committed the war crimes.

I thought we were blaming the KLA? Or am I “splitting hairs” by insisting that the KLA were not robots, but a group that had its own agenda?

@Srpska
For the sake of length, I’m not going to continue this ‘yes you did/no you didn’t’ style you are creating, by countering evidence and logic with “brainwashing” and similar lazy excuses.

we have a brain washed individual admitting that NATO fascists aimed civilian targets

I never denied such a thing. Like Qatz you have argued with an established orthodoxy, not with what I have actually been saying.

Rubbish? Well, if NATO did not bomb Chinese Embassy for watching Serbian TV, why NATO bombed it?

Go back and read what I said about incompetence. It’s still appalling when civilian are killed by mistake, but it is fundamentally different to killing them on purpose.

As I said, Serbian kids are material for the military, so let kill them all, though you might not prefer that

The war was never going to last that long, so from a logical stand point, bombing children on that basis would be illegitimate.

What denial? Correct me if I am wrong - I wanted clarification on your idea to justify bombing of Serbian TV station in 1999 by some alleged "writtings/deeds/or what" in 1995....so, please - clarify it for all of us....I can't google that...

Yugoslavia's bloody collapse By Christopher Bennett pg 248
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=BIT ... #PPA248,M1
First result I got. You didn’t try very hard.

I have never said anything in order to reduce any murders (please quote)

Okay:

Are you aware there were atrocities committed by all other sides against Serbs in that story?

OK, give me your scale then...I have some massive atrocities for you (made by non-Serbs)...

So in response to the argument that bombing Serbia might have been legitimate in the face of atrocities committed by Serbia, you refer to atrocities committed about others. Its goal is either to reduce Serb guilt or distract from the matter at hand.

Then how it did not happen in the reality?

I am not NATO. Hate to disappoint you but I am not your invented enemy.

Do you find it awkward?

Sure. Do you find it awkward that atrocities were committed in the name of Serbs/Serbia? I will not proceed with this debate until you give me a straight answer to this question.

What diplomatic means?

Oh let’s not go thought this bullshit again. I’ll reference assorted conferences. You’ll insist they were fatally flawed (flawed? Yes, fatally? No) while ignoring non-cooperation from the Serbs and pointing to the same behaviour in other parties. You will then insist this is proof I have been brainwashed.

It doesn’t matter what evidence I show you, you simply dismiss it with general statements, denial or relativism.

Well you don't think correctly. It is more than important who started first especially to outsiders and to families of the victims.

Yes I’m sure while Serbs/Croats/Muslims were being shot/mortared etc. they were all desperately trying to remember whose fault it was, not that their lives were about to end.

There were more events mentioned...however, I could not find anything in this link stating it was an error (please quote)...

Do a search for the word Markale in the document, see the quote from the Serb commander of the siege when questioned about the event. Do you want me to fly over and press Ctrl+F for you?

Was that an issue ever?

In response to my question on whether the Serbs were on the defensive in Srebrenica, you stated back of page 2:

Definitely! How many Muslims were killed in Srebrenica from March 26, 1992 till July 11, 1995? According to Muslim data - ZERO!
How many Serbs were killed in the same period in Srebrenica and around Srebrenica? Answer ---> 3.600
How do you explain that?

You buddy LAz said much the same thing. You have out and out tried to paint a picture of Muslim atrocity and denied a Serbian one.

Are you out of your mind, or what?

See the quote of you above. I’m not making this up, you said it!

If you have read everything - you could have seen that he had mentioned several witnesses

Have they been interviewed, or should I just take his word of it?

but, the best idea for you would be to ask him personally...he is still in Srebrenica....

Sure, are I fly out to your home and do all your thinking for you, I’ll ask him, for the benefit of your argument.

Why?

Read the link! From the same source you referenced is an accusation that this man was committing war crimes prior to the Srebrenica massacre. This is an atrocity against your side (thus disproving your insistence that I haven’t acknowledged that such things took place) and you didn’t even take notice. Oh how my feelings are hurt.

Just so we are clear, this debate is over if you won’t answer the question of whether you feel guilt about Serbs committing war crimes.

[Independent_Srpska]

For the sake of length, I’m not going to continue this ‘yes you did/no you didn’t’ style you are creating, by countering evidence and logic with “brainwashing” and similar lazy excuses.

Excellent idea. Stop proving yourself being a super brainwashed individual...

Ethnic cleansing is primarily about displacing populations, not killing people. Murder and even genocide can be a tool for ethnic cleansing, but they are not the goal. Hence the lack of mass graves does not disprove ethnic cleansing as an explanation.

Hummm, and guess what people is the most ethnically cleansed on the soil of ex-YU? And guess who helped genocide over that people?
Could it be NATO fascists? Yep, exactly- NATO fascists....

I never denied such a thing. Like Qatz you have argued with an established orthodoxy, not with what I have actually been saying.

Well, I am glad you realizing NATO fascists committed numerous crimes on the soil of ex-Yu. But, speaking of "an established orthodoxy" - I think you are the one stack in it! But it is simply because you are not able to peek out of the box CNN created for you...

Go back and read what I said about incompetence. It’s still appalling when civilian are killed by mistake, but it is fundamentally different to killing them on purpose.

LOL...gee, incompetent fascists with modern technologies??? LOL....well, there were too many cases proving their incompetence and there were too many civilian victims that proves every pathetic attempt of justifying murders - at least insane!...TV crews, trains, houses, foreign embassies, bridges with people on it, factories, depleted uranium, cluster bombs....too many....

The war was never going to last that long, so from a logical stand point, bombing children on that basis would be illegitimate.

Bombing kids depends on the length of the war??
Congratulations! Hitler would be proud of you...

Yugoslavia's bloody collapse By Christopher Bennett pg 248
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=BIT ... #PPA248,M1
First result I got. You didn’t try very hard.

Well, I want your thoughts....Or you are simply too brainwashed to use your brain....So, let me repeat:"Why do you justify the NATO killing of the TV crew in 1999 by mentioning alleged crimes from 1995?"....

Quote:
I have never said anything in order to reduce any murders (please quote)

Okay:
Quote:
Are you aware there were atrocities committed by all other sides against Serbs in that story?

Quote:
OK, give me your scale then...I have some massive atrocities for you (made by non-Serbs)...

So in response to the argument that bombing Serbia might have been legitimate in the face of atrocities committed by Serbia, you refer to atrocities committed about others. Its goal is either to reduce Serb guilt or distract from the matter at hand.

Where did I reduce anything?

And I am still waiting for your scale....

However do you find 9/11 action legitimate? What your brain says to you...? Could you apply your logic on that case? Or CNN did not create consistent brainwashing?

I am not NATO. Hate to disappoint you but I am not your invented enemy.

Well, NATO is my real enemy. If somebody is throwing bombs on you and killing your friends - then he definitely is not invented, nor a friend....
However, no - you are not NATO, you are funny...

Sure. Do you find it awkward that atrocities were committed in the name of Serbs/Serbia? I will not proceed with this debate until you give me a straight answer to this question.

Well, you should learn how to be involved in discussion....However, every atrocity is awkward, just FYI....
Let me make you think: I am a Serb - no one ever committed any atrocity in my name - that's sick, mate....I hope you understand how ridiculous is what you say....

Oh let’s not go thought this bullshit again. I’ll reference assorted conferences. You’ll insist they were fatally flawed (flawed? Yes, fatally? No) while ignoring non-cooperation from the Serbs and pointing to the same behaviour in other parties. You will then insist this is proof I have been brainwashed.

It doesn’t matter what evidence I show you, you simply dismiss it with general statements, denial or relativism.

I saw no evidence....but there are plenty of evidence that non-Serbs committed plenty of crimes...moreover, there are plenty of evidence that non-Serbs initiated conflict by killing Serbs....so, still we have inconsistent behavior of NATO fascists and their supporters....so, still there is the question:"What diplomatic means?"....

Yes I’m sure while Serbs/Croats/Muslims were being shot/mortared etc. they were all desperately trying to remember whose fault it was, not that their lives were about to end.

humm, pathetic relativization....however, if you want to prevent consequences, know the reasons....Let's then conclude:"It is not important who started the war (at least for you)"....nice foundation for the new legal systems....

Do a search for the word Markale in the document, see the quote from the Serb commander of the siege when questioned about the event. Do you want me to fly over and press Ctrl+F for you?

I did exactly that....

In response to my question on whether the Serbs were on the defensive in Srebrenica, you stated back of page 2:
Quote:
Definitely! How many Muslims were killed in Srebrenica from March 26, 1992 till July 11, 1995? According to Muslim data - ZERO!
How many Serbs were killed in the same period in Srebrenica and around Srebrenica? Answer ---> 3.600
How do you explain that?

You buddy LAz said much the same thing. You have out and out tried to paint a picture of Muslim atrocity and denied a Serbian one.

You asked whether Serbs were defensive. You got your answer - so, let's break it down again - if in the stated period (from March 92 UNTIL July 11, 95) Muslims from Srebrenica killed 3.600 Serbs and Serbs killed ZERO Muslims (at least according to the Muslim data) - what would you say who was offensive and who was defensive?
Please, again point out how did I deny Serbian atrocities ?

Have they been interviewed, or should I just take his word of it?

I dunno....you know how to chose words suitable for you....as every brainwashed individual....no wonder...

Sure, are I fly out to your home and do all your thinking for you, I’ll ask him, for the benefit of your argument.

Nope. For the sake of your sanity....

Read the link! From the same source you referenced is an accusation that this man was committing war crimes prior to the Srebrenica massacre. This is an atrocity against your side (thus disproving your insistence that I haven’t acknowledged that such things took place) and you didn’t even take notice. Oh how my feelings are hurt.

Well, yes he was involved in the events around Srebrenica, he was a chief of the police or something similar. As I mentioned his forces killed 3.600 Serbs in above mentioned period. To me - he is probably responsible for some of them.
But, still that is not connected to the sick plan USA President - Clinton offered to the Muslim leader (Izetbegovic).
Which should picture out how things worked in the Balkans war ---> NATO fascists wanted a military intervention no matter what (as proved by those words!)...no matter 5.000 lives as fascists mentioned....that should shed some light on your brainwashed darkness in your head....hopefully....

Just so we are clear, this debate is over if you won’t answer the question of whether you feel guilt about Serbs committing war crimes.

LOL LOL

are you out of your mind??? Why would I feel guilty??

I am more than glad if you stop bull shitting....

[Smilin' Dave]

Well, you should learn how to be involved in discussion....However, every atrocity is awkward, just FYI....
Let me make you think: I am a Serb - no one ever committed any atrocity in my name - that's sick, mate....I hope you understand how ridiculous is what you say....

LOL LOL

are you out of your mind??? Why would I feel guilty??

Denial, followed by chauvanism. As usual, one standard applies you one, another for others. Discussion can't continue on this unequal basis, so our debate is over.

I suspect your state of denial (to the point where you lie about/avoid the results of text searches) actually suggests you are unable to confront your guilt. Perhaps with time you will be able to come to terms with what was done.

[Independent_Srpska]

Denial

explain/quote/prove it , if you can.

, followed by chauvanism.

explain/quote/prove it , if you can.

As usual, one standard applies you one, another for others.

explain/quote/prove it , if you can.

Discussion can't continue on this unequal basis, so our debate is over.

Hallelujah. though, pity ...exposing your "brainwashness" was a pleasure for me.

I suspect your state of denial (to the point where you lie about/avoid the results of text searches) actually suggests you are unable to confront your guilt. Perhaps with time you will be able to come to terms with what was done.

Oh, my guilt? For what? Oh, Mr. Supreme Judge, please read aloud your verdict in my case.

P.S. Just for the sake of truth --> I know way better than you what was done. I went through it. You, on the other side, most probably, had been brainwashed in front of your TV.

[R_G]

I doubt NATO ever does this again.

Russia isn't getting another Yeltsin for a while.

[Independent_Srpska]

Yep! Let's hope!

The Balkans is much more safer when Russia is strong.

[RabbleRouser]

Sorry I have been taking care of some business for awhile. But man I love this discussion. Srpska look back at my link it shows a logical flow of military operations. You ask why factories 100 KM away are bombed. Well seriously do you have to ask this? Occam's razor explains all of this. The military is not some giant mass organization that is all knowing. The generals and troops are fallible who act based upon the best Intel as dictated by the FOW. The problem you all talk about is the bombing campaign, which was popular in the US at the time as an easy solution to a hard problem. As anybody can see as you go back to the sortie execution you see a natural progression from tactical to operational to strategically and then finally ground troops, once the idea that air power cannot go it alone sunk in. Their is no way that you can say it is this big conspiracy (honestly you give to much credit to the powers that be). Whatever way you cut it the Serbians always come out as the main aggressors. Even if you cut it as the Serbians are a Christian culture but why would NATO back a non Christian organization... because once you answer this you defeat all the post in your other threads. It sucks I have worked with the Serbs and they are great people but you cannot ignore what happened. Lastly western media (although not perfect) has been consistently one of the most reliable sources of information (ignore FOX news). It is not a state run media. Americans grow up learning about the treatment of Native Americans (which most of us are), treatment of blacks (we all get sickle cell test cause we are so mixed), Japanese internment camps, name it we know it. Can that be honestly be as inaccurate as state run media. What strikes me as most amazing is that the links to these "real news sources" which are pure socialist propaganda are also based in the US. So one would say that in America you can get the anyone’s opinion or news. And how is this more corrupt than say Russian or Serbian state run media. Once again Occam's Razor the evidence and facts point toward one conclusion.
Lastly Smiling Dave has provided an open minded forum (something that would not be seen in other countries) and has expressed his opinion but because he is the moderator, he is the bad guy keeping the socialist revolution down. Give me a break it is that sort of thinking that promotes Fascism.

[Independent_Srpska]

You ask why factories 100 KM away are bombed. Well seriously do you have to ask this?

Of course, I have. Not only factories, but bridges, civil trains, embassies, TV towers, civil houses...all involving cassette bombs and depleted Uranium... It was not meant to solve a "difficult problem" - it was just a madness of few idiots that represented USA and NATO...

The problem you all talk about is the bombing campaign, which was popular in the US

Well, here we are....it was POPULAR, that's true...it was not smart, it was not necessary, it was murderous, it was popular, it was fun (for you, of course)....it was meant to humiliate Russian "ally" (as an high ranking NATO official admitted)....so, it has nothing with "solving a difficult issue" - it was just POPULAR.....

Whatever way you cut it the Serbians always come out as the main aggressors.

In fact, there is only one way in which Serbs come out as the main aggressors - the CNN way...in the reality is completely different - as I proved many times by giving the actual happenings...(in the same manner whatever way you cut it - Iraqis are troublesome because of their "WMD"s which were ready to be used against "American" values and world wide interests.....right? ...i'm pointing out the pattern...it's up to you now...