[Ixa]

But it is often claimed that Lincoln cared about Black people or believed in equality.

He once said something like, "If I can win this war without the freeing of a single slave, I will do it".

Lincoln only liberated black slaves so that they could be enlisted in the army to be used as cannon fodder. They couldn't be enlisted as slaves.

This is not to say that the abolition of slavery had happy consequences for the Black man, but clearly, for Lincoln, they were far from the desired ends.

[Crazy Brown Guy]

This is very similar to how people perceive Churchill as, everyone thinks that he was a great liberator who wanted to free every nation from the grip of the British Empire et cetera. The truth is that he was one of the strong advocates of the British Empire. It’s a real pity the world don’t know the truth about most of these “heroes.”

[Red_Army]

Sorry I use the term nazi loosely to describe people with lots of prejudice. I'm not skeptical of his theory, which I believe in. I don't think saying everyone else did it is good enough, he should have been smart enough to realize racism is fucking stupid. I'm just skeptical of him as a person. Him being a racist just makes me respect him much less. I see that I may have been mislead by Apollos, but it didn't make me believe in Evolution any less. Anyway, I won't fall into that trap again any time soon. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Potemkin]

I don't think saying everyone else did it is good enough, he should have been smart enough to realize racism is fucking stupid.

As Marx once said, "Environment determines consciousness". Darwin was a product of his time and place, and he seems to have accepted almost all the received values of his class. According to those received values, racism was only common sense; they thought it was 'fucking stupid' not to believe that other races were inferior. This acceptance of the values of his class, time and place is why Darwin waited twenty years before publishing his theory of evolution, and only did so when Alfred Russel Wallace wrote to him outlining his embryonic evolutionary theory. Darwin realised then that the game was up - even if he didn't publish, somebody else would. Darwin understood very clearly what an intellectual bombshell this theory would be, and that it would undermine religious faith. Darwin wanted to protect Victorian society from that. In no sense was Darwin an atheist or a revolutionary, and he regretted the decline of religious faith during the Victorian age. But he was a scientist, and he reluctantly recognised the objective truth of evolution despite the fact that it went against everything he believe in as a person.

[Red_Army]

What you say seems correct to me Potemkin. It was stupid of me to be critical of a scientist based on something that has nothing to do with his theory. Even so, he is still not my hero and I imagine that there were people who lived during his time who weren't racists. This said, I know from racist family members that racism is passed on from generation to generation and is a hard chain to break.

[Potemkin]

Even so, he is still not my hero and I imagine that there were people who lived during his time who weren't racists.

Certainly there were, but they were regarded rather in the same way that revolutionary Communists are regarded in mainstream society now - a fringe group with dangerous and extreme ideas who are a threat to civilization itself. To expect Darwin to belong to their number is like expecting, say, Stephen Hawking to be a Stalinist. And why do you feel the need to have 'heroes'?

[Attila The Nun]

"I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the negro into our social and political life as our equal."

And he was certainly right. It was a huge problem, because many of the people were racist. It would have been very difficult for the country to all of the sudden have equality for blacks. Think of the social turmoil it would've caused. That's not to say that Lincoln didn't wish it could happen personally.

Remember, Lincoln was at heart an abolitionist. The Republican party started out as a liberal anti-slavery party (hard enough as it is to see today). In fact, him being sent into the Presidency likely caused the final push for rebellion.

I think he only liberated black slaves so that they could be enlisted in the army to be used as cannon fodder.

Black divisions fought bravely in the Civil War not just as cannonfodder but as real men, there's even a famous painting of a black Division attacking a fort in Texas. It's very disrepectful to call them cannonfodder.

The American goverment still teaches children that Aberham was a hero and wanted to free the slaves and have them live in prosperity.

He personally did. But he was also a man of pragmatism. Remember the political climate of the time, slavery was a hugely delicate issue.

So the conclusion is that the American civil war had absolutely nothing to do with freeing the slaves whatsoever.

It did, but not directly. The Civil War was about State rights, the rights to secede, the State's rights about accepting or not accepting law ete.

This is not to say that the abolition of slavery had happy consequences for the Black man, but clearly, for Lincoln, they were far from the desired ends.

Again, slavery, delicate issue at the time. And it was the desired end, but not one he could keep in the Presidency. Pragmatism sometimes has to come before principle

[Ixa]

Remember, Lincoln was at heart an abolitionist.

Certainly not 'at heart' an abolitionist was he. He once said something like, "If I can win this war without the freeing of a single slave, that I shall do". For as I said earlier, Lincoln only liberated black slaves so that they could be enlisted in the army to be used as cannon fodder. They couldn't be enlisted as slaves. This is not to say that the abolition of slavery had happy consequences for the Black man, but clearly, for Lincoln, they were far from the desired ends.

[Attila The Nun]

Did you even read what else I said? It was pragmatism! It would be very difficult for him to free the slaves under the political climate, and he was pretty ballsy doing it. Imagine the social turmoil it would've caused. You have no idea the political climae of the time and it shows.

[Ixa]

Actually, the political climate was perfect for it.

[Schrödinger's Kitty]

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but are you talking about the civil war? How can the lincoln government be descendents of the present power?

Sorry that's my english. I meant the opposite.

[Luke]

What a nazi, I'm more skeptical of him now.

.....Do you even know what a nazi is?

[Crazy Brown Guy]

luke_w, do you?

Na·zi ( P ) Pronunciation Key (näts, nt-)
n. pl. Na·zis
A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.
often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist.

adj.
Of, relating to, controlled by, or typical of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

[Captain Hat]

I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the negro into our social and political life as our equal.

First and foremost, is this for real? As someone has pointed out this is most likely taken out of context.

As Triggerhappy has pointed out, (if "out of context" is the case). Lincoln was probably being honest. He and his contemporaries could only see strife and more civil unrest in an attempt to integrate blacks into American society (already there had been race riots in New York in 1863).

I seem to think this is out of context, or simply fabricated.

Secondly, how can you honestly call Lincoln a "Nazi"? You are all jumping to really juvenile conclusions.

Thirdly, how can you say Lincoln was using the blacks as cannon fodder? If that was the case, then why were blacks only 10% of the Federal Army? And why would he have waited until late 1863 and 1864 to arm, equip, and train this so-called "cannon fodder"?

It does not make any sense.

[Red_Army]

Potemkin I like to see examples of people, groups of people and such that do great and selfless things. It inspires me. As to the stuff about nazi, I think Jina handled that.

[Attila The Nun]

Actually, the political climate was perfect for it.

That's why there was such a stable union of the South and the North.

often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist

When has Lincoln advocated Fascist or National Socialst politcs? The Republican party might have been Liberal, but it was by no means Socialist.

[Apollos]

I hate to bring this up, but Darwin's theory is, by his own admission, far outside the bounds of true science. His "theory" is nothing more than a religious belief.

[Schrödinger's Kitty]

I hate to bring this up, but Darwin's theory is, by his own admission, far outside the bounds of true science. His "theory" is nothing more than a religious belief.

Wrong. His theory has proof, and can be scientifically tested. Religions offer no proof for their mythology.

[Apollos]

His theory has proof, and can be scientifically tested.

Proceed to explain yourself, this could be funny...

[Schrödinger's Kitty]

Create a thead in science forum and I will.