[DanDaMan]

With the recent passing of the health care bill America has now positioned itself firmly left of center and further away from a Republic based on equality under Law.
Social Justice laws are now law of the land forever trumping laws to protect you the individual. You now serve your neighbors good.

There are now only two parties in America... National Socialism (old Republican party)
Or the
Democratic Socialist Left which we have now.

[Cartertonian]

RIP

Where would you like me to send the wreath?

[DanDaMan]

The interesting part is that if another Bush is elected he will justifiably be called a National Socialist leader. We will be a Nazi state less the murder, racism and bigotry. Well, another Bush would close the borders because the people elected him to do it. So we will then be racists in the eyes of the Liberal socialists.

And then there are wars we start... we are then DEFINITELY Nazis!

[Rei Murasame]

Newsflash: There have been no conservatives in the USA since 1776. Those who you didn't kill, ran off to govern Canada and run universal healthcare.

Seriously.

[DanDaMan]

Newsflash: There have been no conservatives in the USA since 1776. Those who you didn't kill, ran off to govern Canada and run universal healthcare.

Seriously.

It's a moot point now.

[Nattering Nabob]

Conservatism is now dead in the USA.

Reagan and Bush killed conservatism with their foreign wars and deficits...

[Potemkin]

The last conservative in American politics was Barry Goldwater (who was actually an extreme liberal, by European political definitions).

[Ash Faulkner]

Indeed, the history of America has been libertarianism vs. progressivism, and the states vs. the federal government, with a bit of Christianity and racism thrown in from time to time. European ideas like conservatism and socialism have always had little hold there.

[SecretSquirrel]

i think it was clear to everyone that conservatism was dead when Lincoln decided to wage war to force the southern states back into the Union

[Caveat Lector]

Newsflash: There have been no conservatives in the USA since 1776. Those who you didn't kill, ran off to govern Canada and run universal healthcare.

Seriously.

Why is it, you seem to be bound by the idea that Conservatives in the US must be held to the exact ideology of Conservatives in the UK?

They are completely different - opposite, even.

[Rei Murasame]

Because in the entire world of Rightist thought, the USA is the only country that continually calls Classical Liberalism "Conservative", and then tries to export that definition around the world through international television. At some point the rest of us had to say "no", because it confuses things too much.

It's reached the point where when you say "Liberal", no one even knows what it means anymore. And then you get people like DanDaMan playing semantic word-games with it all day. It's like some kind of bizarre Orwellian tap-dance. Basically you need to see Dan in action, to understand why I've been raising this point so vigorously.

[DanDaMan]

It's reached the point where when you say "Liberal", no one even knows what it means anymore.

That's not my fault. The progressive leftists changed their name to Liberal!

i think it was clear to everyone that conservatism was dead when Lincoln decided to wage war to force the southern states back into the Union

You are mistaken. A conservative at that time would be a classic Republican. Ergo law of the land (Republic) demanded the enforcement of equality laws and the ending of slavery.

[PBVBROOK]

You are mistaken. A conservative at that time would be a classic Republican. Ergo law of the land (Republic) demanded the enforcement of equality laws and the ending of slavery.

What do you do when you are not rewriting history? Lincoln was a liberal. So was the republican party.

[DanDaMan]

What do you do when you are not rewriting history? Lincoln was a liberal. So was the republican party.

Liberal of his day (right of center) or [modern] Liberal (left of center) of today?

[William_H_Dougherty]

#1. As has been mentioned, the real "conservatives" of 1776 were the "Tories", who as a political movement are quite alive and well (and flourishing) in Canada over two-hundred years later. I fail to see what is inherently conservative about the current republican party besides a few wedge social issues thrown in every platform to draw attention away from a rather bleak fiscal record.

#2. The Republican Party will adapt to this change in the political status quo. They'll be back in the White House, have no doubt. It doesn't matter what the democrats accomplish; eventually the desire for "change" will work against the democrats.

#3. Yes, the United States can probably be considered left-of-centre in some ways. But from my point of view they have been for quite some time; our previous Liberal Government was more fiscally conservative than the Republicans under George W. Bush, the Democrats under Bill Clinton, and the Republicans under George H.W. Bush.

#4. I fail to see what has everybody up in arms about universal access to healthcare. Seems to me to be necessary to create a sustainable free-market economy. People should not die because of their socioeconomic status, and unfortuantely that is what a fully private system delivers. There is nothing at all unreasonable about government ensuring certain public goods are accessible to the population. That doesn't make you a communist/socialist regime. The whole purpose of a State is to provide exactly that.

- WHD

[PBVBROOK]

Liberal of his day (right of centre) or [modern] Liberal (left of centre) of today?

Liberal of Lincoln's day was left of center as it is today.

How is life under the bridge?

[daytoncapri]

I get genuinely confused with a term like conservative, as it seems to be morphing into something different every day.

1) One of my friends calls herself "conservative" and speaks glowingly of Sarah Palin and John Boehner, and said Bush betrayed them, and "Nobama!". Ok, some folks are ticked off about something, but I'm not sure what that means in the big picture.

2) In a different setting, some have spoken glowingly of Goldwater, who - towards the end of his life - was beginning to sound like a warm-hearted grandpa to some on the American Left.

3) You find posters forum who gently explain how "classical liberalism" is actually a form of conservatism - thank you, Professor, I am sure that definition works on campus.

All these descriptions have a certain internal logic, but they are not consistent with each other. The meanings are lost. It seems to me that labeling as liberal, conservative, libertarian, whatever are just short-hand conveniences. When a simple word like "conservative" carries so much power in a complex world, it seems to me that we're oversimplifying.

Personally, I think the best answer is absolute monarchy - If that sounds good, I'll tell you . . .

[ninurta]

All these descriptions have a certain internal logic, but they are not consistent with each other. The meanings are lost.

Indeed.....

Just because you say so.

It seems to me that labeling as liberal, conservative, libertarian, whatever are just short-hand conveniences.
When a simple word like "conservative" carries so much power in a complex world, it seems to me that we're oversimplifying.

With liberal and conservative, I agree. But libertarian, I disagree. You are either for selfownership or you are not, that is not oversimplifying, that is a specific stance.

Personally, I think the best answer is absolute monarchy - If that sounds good, I'll tell you . . .

Only if I was declared king.

[Ombrageux]

FFS DDM.

Stop spamming the forum with your junk! If you love your liberty so much, do what the slaves did and flee to that great bright beacon of liberty in North: O, Canada.

[Voluntary]

Conservatism has been dead for awhile. I think the Republican Revolution downfall started with Reagan and the Religious Right. That is when Goldwater started to break away from the party and he was the main impetus for the Revolution. However, I thought he was a hothead on foreign policy and too stubborn to support the Civil Rights Act.

Anyways, I digressed. This Health Care is very Republican. It stems from Nixon and the mandate was originally invented by a conservative economist, Mark Pauly, and supported by Republicans. In fact, some of the original cosponsors of the proposal are still in Congress.

Guess what? They are all Republican: Orrin Hatch, Charles Grassley, Robert Bennetth and Christopher Bond of Missouri.

This health care bill is very "Republican".

As a libertarian, I would have supported a Public Option that was non-for-profit and non subsidized. If liberals could show me that they could get our debt under control and that this Public Option was fiscally responsible, I would have compromised and ever supported future subsidies.

However, this bill is very much bullshit, but something had to be done on reform. Too bad, it adopted many "Conservative" ideas rather than "Progressive" ones.