[Oxymoron]

So, you're saying that we live in a fallen world, where humans are all fallible and imperfect?

Gosh, I seem to remember someone else in this thread saying something very similar. Let me see if I can find it. Oh, here it is:

But you claim someone has a right to judge our inperfection.

"Sin" is falling short of perfection. Nothing more.

Since perfection doesnt exist that argument is void.

Like I said, if you don't understand the concepts being discussed, you'd be better off just staying out of a thread. "God as an absentee landlord" is so entry-level.

Oh Todd please dont censor opinions you dont agree with.

Basically we are not flawed creatures since perfection doesnt exist.

[Todd D.]

But you claim someone has a right to judge our inperfection.

"Someone" implies a person. I am saying that you are measured AGAINST perfection, by a being that literally is the creator of said perfection.

Since perfection doesnt exist that argument is void.

Of course it does. You're right that humans can't hope to reach perfection (which is what the thread is about in the first place), but that doesn't mean that perfection doesn't exist. What is perfection? Not failing, not falling short.

Oh Todd please dont censor opinions you dont agree with.

I didn't censor anything. That's twice this week you've used the term "censorship" improperly.

Basically we are not flawed creatures since perfection doesnt exist.

Keep thinking that, let me know how that works out for you. Try telling a cop "Hey man, perfection doesn't exist, drunk driving is A-OK!"

[Oxymoron]

What is perfection? Not failing, not falling short.

Ok....and your point?

Keep thinking that, let me know how that works out for you. Try telling a cop "Hey man, perfection doesn't exist, drunk driving is A-OK

Wow, how do you come to that from what I said? Todd your something else.

Todd and your words " get out of this thread " and you being a Mod is censorship.

[Todd D.]

Ok....and your point?

Uh, that not failing is the definition of perfection. That is what you asked, is it not?

Todd and your words " get out of this thread " and you being a Mod is censorship.

1) I never said "get out of this thread".
2) I am not a mod of this forum.

Even if I was a mod of this forum, and even if I did say "get out of this thread", that still would not be censorship, since I have not deleted or altered any of your posts.

[Oxymoron]

that not failing is the definition of perfection

And who or what hasnt failed?

Wasnt the whole eating of the forbidden fruit under the watchful eyes of God a major screw up?

[Todd D.]

And who or what hasnt failed?

That's the point. All have failed, all have screwed up. It's part of our human nature. THAT IS WHAT ORIGINAL SIN IS.

Are you not paying attention?

Wasnt the whole eating of the forbidden fruit under the watchful eyes of God a major screw up?

Certainly on Adam and Eve's part it was.

[Oxymoron]

That's the point. All have failed, all have screwed up. It's part of our human nature. THAT IS WHAT ORIGINAL SIN IS.

Are you not paying attention?

Arent you paying attention, I am talking about all things in this Universe are not perfect all things. Thus the idea of not being perfect has no meaning.

Are you not paying attention?

So I suppose it was soldier # 5's fault that Napolean lost at Waterloo.

[Brio]

It's not a uniquely Catholic concept at all. Protestants adhere to the same New Testament canon that Catholics do, yet they reject the doctrine of Apostolic Succession and Church infallibility. The quotes from the OT used to justify the concept of Original Sin are also in the Protestant canon as well. Further, even if they don't explicitly refer to it as "Original Sin", the doctrines are identical to the Catholic understanding in every mainstream Protestant denomination that I am aware of.

Not to derail the debate Oxymoron and Todd are having, but I just wanted to backup Todd on this point. I grew up in a very religious Protestant home (Baptist) and the concept of "Original Sin" was taught to me in church/Sunday school. I believe (although my memory isn't great) that we even called the concept "Original Sin".

[Todd D.]

Arent you paying attention, I am talking about all things in this Universe are not perfect all things. Thus the idea of not being perfect has no meaning.

False. In Christianity, God is perfection.

[Oxymoron]

How do religious folks, Christian and non-Christian, feel about the notion of original sin?

I said how I feel, you want to base your position on faight that is your choice.

[Todd D.]

What the hell is "faight"? If you mean "faith", then that's misleading. The only thing I'm basing on "faith" is the idea that God is perfect. The idea that imperfection exists is not based on faith, it's based on obvious observation of the world.

What theistic tradition do you adhere to where God is not perfect?

[Oxymoron]

I think its foolish for us to say that God is Perfect if we are not capable of understanding Perfection. If the God of the Bible was perfect he wouldnt need to experiment on people like with the Flood, or make wagers with satan and ruin mens life.

I think God is more abstract, we should not give God human traits. God is all, we are all God. Meaning Perfection and inperfection is meaningless.

[Todd D.]

I think its foolish for us to say that God is Perfect if we are not capable of understanding Perfection.

Why?

If the God of the Bible was perfect he wouldnt need to experiment on people like with the Flood

The Flood was a result of our own free will choosing to ignore God, not God's imperfection.

or make wagers with satan and ruin mens life.

Uh, what? Are you referring to Job? Because if so, you really need to read that story again, because it clearly went right over your head if THAT'S what you think it's about.

I think God is more abstract, we should not give God human traits. God is all, we are all God. Meaning Perfection and inperfection is meaningless.

As discussed, "perfection" is not a human trait. I agree with you that God is beyond our understanding (though Jesus largely bridged that gap in understanding by becoming Human), but that doesn't mean that perfection is completely beyond our understanding.

Besides, all we really need to know is "We're not perfect". I've never met anyone that finds that statement hard to admit.

[Oxymoron]

The Flood was a result of our own free will choosing to ignore God, not God's imperfection

I thought God was perfect and vanity is a Sin.

Uh, what? Are you referring to Job? Because if so, you really need to read that story again, because it clearly went right over your head if THAT'S what you think it's about.

Perhaps you misunderstood the story, why dont you tell me what you think it means.

As discussed, "perfection" is not a human trait. I agree with you that God is beyond our understanding (though Jesus largely bridged that gap in understanding by becoming Human), but that doesn't mean that perfection is completely beyond our understanding.

Jesus is not God, if you claim he is you are breaking a rule of Idol worship. You cant pick and choose what parts of the Bible you will follow. Also if he was God why was he asking himself why he abandoned himself.

Besides, all we really need to know is "We're not perfect". I've never met anyone that finds that statement hard to admit.

I am what I am and I am not appologizing.

[Todd D.]

I thought God was perfect and vanity is a Sin.

What does that have to do with the Flood? What does vanity have to do with anything?

Perhaps you misunderstood the story, why dont you tell me what you think it means.

The story of Job is a story of triumph over Satan. Job's faith was so strong (and God knew this, so there was no "wager", as you put it) that he knew God's will was just, and that God would protect him. In other words, it's a story that pain and suffering are not necessarily "bad", but are part of divine wisdom.

It's also a tremendous reference for those that have always asked "Why does God let the innocent suffer?" It's really simple, as an old poem says: "God will never burden you with more than you can handle. If He has increased your load, it's only because He has increased your capacity."

Jesus is not God, if you claim he is you are breaking a rule of Idol worship. You cant pick and choose what parts of the Bible you will follow.

Worshiping God is idol worship?

Also if he was God why was he asking himself why he abandoned himself.

He wasn't. He was quoting Psalm 22, and reflecting on the true cost of having literally all the sins of the world placed on Him. As Paul notes, Jesus didn't just bear sins, He became sin (2 Cor 5:21), and He was expressing the loneliness and isolation from God that sin creates.

Plus, do you really not see the Prophecy in an OT story about a "just" man enduring suffering for the sake of others? Does that not sound like a certain New Testament character to you?

I am what I am and I am not appologizing.

That's not what I said. I asked if you were perfect.

[Oxymoron]

What does that have to do with the Flood? What does vanity have to do with anything?

Killing Millions or Billions of people because they werent worshiping him properly and having consensual sex with Angels. That is an act of a Vain Tyrant.

The story of Job is a story of triumph over Satan. Job's faith was so strong (and God knew this, so there was no "wager", as you put it) that he knew God's will was just, and that God would protect him. In other words, it's a story that pain and suffering are not necessarily "bad", but are part of divine wisdom.

Yeah he lost everything just so God could prove a point to Satan. Thats like testing your childrens trust by beating them infront of company showing that they wont protest.

'Hey Bob want to bet I can kick my childs ass and he still will say thank you master some more please.'

Also speaking of Satan what was his big crime that the Church needs to villify him so much? Is he an easy enemy to fight and collect money to protect us people from his evil thoughts?

It's also a tremendous reference for those that have always asked "Why does God let the innocent suffer?" It's really simple, as an old poem says: "God will never burden you with more than you can handle. If He has increased your load, it's only because He has increased your capacity."

There is some truth in that.

Worshiping God is idol worship?

Worshiping Jesus as God is Idol worship by its very definition especially the whole Jesus on a Cross that people pray to.

He wasn't. He was quoting Psalm 22, and reflecting on the true cost of having literally all the sins of the world placed on Him. As Paul notes, Jesus didn't just bear sins, He became sin (2 Cor 5:21), and He was expressing the loneliness and isolation from God that sin creates.

Thats one take on the issue, a convient take.

Plus, do you really not see the Prophecy in an OT story about a "just" man enduring suffering for the sake of others? Does that not sound like a certain New Testament character to you?

Self fufilling prophecy Jesus could read you know.

That's not what I said. I asked if you were perfect.

I already answered that question, but maybe its worth repeating I am not perfect and I am proud of that. Sin contains a negative meaning, I dont feel like I was born already doing something wrong. Perfect does not exist or we wouldnt exist.

[Todd D.]

Killing Millions or Billions of people because they werent worshiping him properly and having consensual sex with Angels. That is an act of a Vain Tyrant.

Even if you were to take the flood story literally, they weren't killed for "not worshipping him properly". They were killed for having descended in to wickedness.

See the "God = morality" thread. God doesn't make rules just to say "Let's see how difficult I can make things for them", He makes rules to protect them, just as a parent makes a rule to prevent their children from touching a hot stove.

Yeah he lost everything just so God could prove a point to Satan.

No, he didn't. Read the story again. You are going on what you think you heard. The story never says that God "proved a point to Satan" or that He wagered anything.

Also speaking of Satan what was his big crime that the Church needs to villify him so much?

He wanted to be God, he thought his way was better than God's way.

Funny how that sounds similar, innit?

Is he an easy enemy to fight and collect money to protect us people from his evil thoughts?

In Christianity, Satan has literally no power. He was defeated at Calvary once and for all. If he is supposed to be an "easy enemy to collect money", then the Church made a pretty stupid blunder by having him defeated 2 millennia ago.

Worshiping Jesus as God is Idol worship by its very definition especially the whole Jesus on a Cross that people pray to.

Jesus is God. Worshiping Jesus is worshipping God, therefore it can not be "idol worship". You don't know what you're talking about.

Thats one take on the issue, a convient take.

Are you really suggesting that Jesus just so happened to quote Psalm 21 directly?

I already answered that question, but maybe its worth repeating I am not perfect and I am proud of that.

Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death. - Proverbs 16:5, 18, 25

[Oxymoron]

Even if you were to take the flood story literally, they weren't killed for "not worshipping him properly". They were killed for having descended in to wickedness.
See the "God = morality" thread. God doesn't make rules just to say "Let's see how difficult I can make things for them", He makes rules to protect them, just as a parent makes a rule to prevent their children from touching a hot stove.

What exact rules were meant to protect us? Also if my daughter doesnt listen to me I put her in the corner I dont kill her, and try again to have a normal child this time. That is just insane, that would win worst parent award. So he killed us to protect us huh? Wow thanks!

No, he didn't. Read the story again. You are going on what you think you heard. The story never says that God "proved a point to Satan" or that He wagered anything.

I read it last weak but perhaps I misread, I will check it out.

He wanted to be God, he thought his way was better than God's way.

So That makes him evil?

Funny how that sounds similar, innit?

Not following.

In Christianity, Satan has literally no power. He was defeated at Calvary once and for all. If he is supposed to be an "easy enemy to collect money", then the Church made a pretty stupid blunder by having him defeated 2 millennia ago.

So who is going to cause Armegadon? Why were witches burned for being in league with him? Please do not understate the Christian position toward Satan.

Jesus is God. Worshiping Jesus is worshipping God, therefore it can not be "idol worship". You don't know what you're talking about.

Jesus claimed to be God, in any even if we take it on the basis of faight, the Burning Bush was also God but it is forbidden to worship it even though, it is God. Please Todd it is against the rules to worship any object or even make a representation of the God to worship. A Cross, Jesus on a Cross, if you pray to their image you are commiting Idol worship, even worse if you pray to Mary and the Saints.

Are you really suggesting that Jesus just so happened to quote Psalm 21 directly?

Please elaborate.

Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

I am not the Prideful one, the Organized religions versions of God is.

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death. -

When men ate the forbidden fruit he chose freedom over servitude, which is the only right choice. Let me be free, act right not out of fear, but out of Love. Not for the graces of an all powerful being, but for the graces of fellow man. The idea of Hell and Heaven is repungnant to me, reward and punishement doesnt sound like a higher benevolent being, sounds more like Pavlov and the Dogs.

[Todd D.]

What exact rules were meant to protect us?

Are you serious? You don't see how "Love one another" is meant to protect us? Are you kidding?

So That makes him evil?

He rebelled against not only the creator of all goodness, but the very definition of goodness. If you fight against "good", what would you call it?

Not following.

All sin is, at it's very core, telling God that you know better than He does. "I know what you want, but I don't think that's the best way, I'm going to do it my way". Mankind's sin, from the very beginning, has been listening to Satan when he tells us that we can do it on our own, our own way.

We can't, and he knows it. He tried, and he's been regretting that decision from the very beginning.

So who is going to cause Armegadon? Why were witches burned for being in league with him? Please do not understate the Christian position toward Satan.

Historical Christianity has gotten a lot wrong. You think I deny that?

[...]the Burning Bush was also God but it is forbidden to worship it even though, it is God. Please Todd it is against the rules to worship any object or even make a representation of the God to worship. A Cross, Jesus on a Cross, if you pray to their image you are commiting Idol worship, even worse if you pray to Mary and the Saints.

First of all, it was not forbidden to create an image of the Burning Bush. Deuteronomy says that because there was no form of the burning bush, images are forbidden.

Secondly, you are clearly ignorant on the veneration of images, but that's another topic.

Thirdly, this is not "an image". It IS God. Even the New Testament says that Christ was worshipped.

Please elaborate.

You indicated that the Psalm 21 explanation for "Why have you foresaken me" was "convenient", implying that there was some other explanation. That other explanation would have to explain why it lines up word for word with a Psalm specifically written about taking the brunt of sin.

When men ate the forbidden fruit he chose freedom over servitude, which is the only right choice.

Actually, he chose servitude. By rebelling against God, man became a slave to sin.
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. - John 8

Let me be free, act right not out of fear, but out of Love.

There was no fear in the Garden of Eden, only consequence.

The idea of Hell and Heaven is repungnant to me, reward and punishement doesnt sound like a higher benevolent being

"Reward and punishment" is not an idea found in the Bible. That's Dante (which it appears your theology is based on). "Heaven" and "Hell" are images to describe being in the presence of God for eternity, or being exiled from God for eternity. Since God is the source of all goodness, to be exiled from God is to be exiled from all goodness for eternity, but it's not a "punishment", it's a natural consequence of OUR decision. We choose to serve God, or we choose to "go it ourselves". God respects that decision, but we are still responsible for the consequences.

[Oxymoron]

Are you serious? You don't see how "Love one another" is meant to protect us? Are you kidding?

Love one another? Which law is that? from what I read it had more to do with the Angels coming down to know the daugthers of men. In any case love one another or die is not very loving.

He rebelled against not only the creator of all goodness, but the very definition of goodness. If you fight against "good", what would you call it?

You assume benevolence but from the actions in the Bible you cannot make that claim. Creation in itself does not equat to good. Or are you saying Dead beat dads are good because they created the child?

All sin is, at it's very core, telling God that you know better than He does. "I know what you want, but I don't think that's the best way, I'm going to do it my way". Mankind's sin, from the very beginning, has been listening to Satan when he tells us that we can do it on our own, our own way.

We can't, and he knows it. He tried, and he's been regretting that decision from the very beginning.

I hope my daughter grows up to make her own desicions about her life. If I had done a good job as a parent that is.

Historical Christianity has gotten a lot wrong. You think I deny that?

Fair enough.

Secondly, you are clearly ignorant on the veneration of images, but that's another topic.

Thirdly, this is not "an image". It IS God. Even the New Testament says that Christ was worshipped.

So you wont explain the Cross and the image of Jesus being prayed to? So Jesus is white and has Blue eyes.

You indicated that the Psalm 21 explanation for "Why have you foresaken me" was "convenient", implying that there was some other explanation. That other explanation would have to explain why it lines up word for word with a Psalm specifically written about taking the brunt of sin.

Ok that is a valid point, but it doesnt prove him being God.

Actually, he chose servitude. By rebelling against God, man became a slave to sin.
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. - John 8

Ok but I prefer to find my own truth.

There was no fear in the Garden of Eden, only consequence.

Consequence is real, life is great because it isnt filled with happiness. What is happines without sadness, what is Pleasure without pain? The Garden took our humanity away and made us slaves or pets.

"Reward and punishment" is not an idea found in the Bible. That's Dante (which it appears your theology is based on). "Heaven" and "Hell" are images to describe being in the presence of God for eternity, or being exiled from God for eternity. Since God is the source of all goodness, to be exiled from God is to be exiled from all goodness for eternity, but it's not a "punishment", it's a natural consequence of OUR decision. We choose to serve God, or we choose to "go it ourselves". God respects that decision, but we are still responsible for the consequences.

That is closer to Judaism then modern Christianity.