[Dagoth Ur]

@mike: Do you really believe that most atheists reached the point (where they weren't raised as such) of becoming atheist through thoughtful consideration of personal beliefs? If so I am amazed you could possibly be so naive. Very few people really think about their values. Instead values are more like a fashion accessory, arrayed in terms of style.

[mikema63]

@mike: Do you really believe that most atheists reached the point (where they weren't raised as such) of becoming atheist through thoughtful consideration of personal beliefs? If so I am amazed you could possibly be so naive. Very few people really think about their values. Instead values are more like a fashion accessory, arrayed in terms of style.

I do, people may not have thought it out well, but they certainly thought about it.

I don't really think I'm naive, honestly most people I know think I'm very cynical, being called naive by you makes me worry about how you get through life.

[Dagoth Ur]

Being an atheist because you know nothing about your native religion and you don't like its practitioners is not thoughtful introspection mike.

And I'm not cynical. I believe in people and they aren't achieveing even a fraction of their capabilities. I'm just being realisitic about how things are right now.

[Zionist Nationalist]

The fact that people belive that Jesus was born to a virgin woman is enough to understand that its total bullshit
I just gave an example to my native religion (unfortunately my grandmother in Ukraine still going to church and believe in those fairytales)

[mikema63]

Being an atheist because you know nothing about your native religion and you don't like its practitioners is not thoughtful introspection mike.

I'm confused about this line? Are you saying this about me?

And I'm not cynical. I believe in people and they aren't achieveing even a fraction of their capabilities. I'm just being realisitic about how things are right now.

Cynics always style themselves as realists, I believe in people to, and they are doing the best they can.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm confused about this line? Are you saying this about me? :?:

Maybe. I don't know how you got to atheism. But it is true of nearly every atheist I know.

Cynics always style themselves as realists, I believe in people to, and they are doing the best they can.

They are not. They are doing what is socially expected and stopping right there. Most people don't think about anything outside of their immediate activities and frequently seen others. Mostly because there is no real compelling reason to think as much as we do.

[kobe]

You don't need to know about your native religion or any religion at all. It is pretty useful to if you like to debate the topic, but in actuality all that means is that your brainwashing didn't take. At the end of the day if you don't have any religion in life, you probably just paid attention in school and realized there have been tons of religions and your native one is no special just because of genetic chance. Religion is like cigarettes, everyone is so certain they need it in a time of Crisis but can't explain why, and it has killed a lot of people.

[Rei Murasame]

That argument fails as soon as people attempt to use against religions that don't position themselves as being 'the only way'. For those, the fact that there are many religions only makes the case for religion stronger.

[kobe]

What a religion theoretically teaches and what it's followers practice are two different things. Besides, if there is a religion that posits it is not the only way, then it should have no problem with lack of adherence to the faith. Either way there is no real reason for an atheist to learn more about it. The reasoning for doing so is purely circular.

[fuser]

What a religion theoretically teaches and what it's followers practice are two different things

If I am reading you right and you mean to say that in actual belief there is no religion which doesn't fancy itself as the "only way", there are indeed many such religions that do so in theory and practice.

and it has killed a lot of people.

Meh, I don't get this argument. Religion hasn't killed people, wars have killed people caused by various socio-economical and political reasons. Religion was merely a motivator, a propaganda tool for the men going to war, something else would had been used if not religion, just like how freedom and democracy has killed lots of people in middle east.

if there is a religion that posits it is not the only way, then it should have no problem with lack of adherence to the faith. Either way there is no real reason for an atheist to learn more about it.

Why shouldn't atheist learn about religions?

I am an atheist but still fascinated by religions, why be ignorant, is this now we should be preaching, ignorance?

Of course atheists also should learn about religious beliefs and practices if nothing then just out of curiosity.

[kobe]

I was responding to Dagoth Ur saying I should learn about my native religion. If religion is fascinating go ahead and learn about it.

I suppose the Unitarian church fits the definition, but no, religion is pretty much by definition exclusive in its beliefs, and if not I have no onus to learn it by its own admission. Very simple logic in my view.

[fuser]

I suppose the Unitarian church fits the definition, but no, religion is pretty much by definition exclusive in its beliefs,

Most of the eastern religions are not.

and if not I have no onus to learn it by its own admission. Very simple logic in my view.

As I said previously one does have onus at the very least curiosity, fascination etc.

And as per Dagoth, meh neither religious people nor atheists come to their respective identities after some deep study and introspection, to me its a moot point.

[kobe]

Here is why: any deceleration of order or structure ideally defined will entail a true path. Even if multiple paths are acceptable, there is always essential meaning being espoused and a way of being. If you are inclusive of all religions, then you include religions that exclude your path and accept my non-belief as equal to your belief. If you are not, then I stand by my original statement.

To agree with you somewhat, I have been influenced in my own spiritual path by the Eastern religions but my fundamental lack of cultural and language understanding gets in the way. Psychedelics are my religion.

[fuser]

Here is why: any deceleration of order or structure ideally defined will entail a true path.

I didn't get this line. What kind of order or structure are you talking about.

Even if multiple paths are acceptable, there is always essential meaning being espoused and a way of being. If you are inclusive of all religions, then you include religions that exclude your path and accept my non-belief as equal to your belief. If you are not, then I stand by my original statement.

There is no equality necessarily, its more like there are different vehicles. You have to go from point A to B, you can take a bike, car or you can by foot, train or bicycle. They are not equal but necessarily superior or inferior. Probably you prefer bicycle, probably I can't pay for train, probably walking is preferable because of health reasons.

Not being equal doesn't necessarily mean superior-inferior dichotomy.

To agree with you somewhat, I have been influenced in my own spiritual path by the Eastern religions but my fundamental lack of cultural and language understanding gets in the way. Psychedelics are my religion.

lol, I am not proselytizing or anything, just making a simple point that eastern religions are more acceptable to multiple paths idea, there is much to be criticized in both eastern and western religions.

I am still an atheist.

[anticlimacus]

You don't need to know about your native religion or any religion at all. It is pretty useful to if you like to debate the topic, but in actuality all that means is that your brainwashing didn't take. At the end of the day if you don't have any religion in life, you probably just paid attention in school and realized there have been tons of religions and your native one is no special just because of genetic chance. Religion is like cigarettes, everyone is so certain they need it in a time of Crisis but can't explain why, and it has killed a lot of people.

I don't think Dagoth's point was primarily that atheists should know in much depth about the religions around them, anymore than a religious person should know about other worldviews beyond familiarity. What I took was the point that atheists, even though they often profess to be smarter and more thought out than religious people, are often just as naive, simplistic, and unreflective about their beliefs. For instance, the often dogmatic and militant atheism of many today ironically resembles the dogmatic religious fundamentalism these atheists claim to reject.

[mikema63]

don't think Dagoth's point was primarily that atheists should know in much depth about the religions around them, anymore than a religious person should know about other worldviews beyond familiarity. What I took was the point that atheists, even though they often profess to be smarter and more thought out than religious people, are often just as naive, simplistic, and unreflective about their beliefs. For instance, the often dogmatic and militant atheism of many today ironically resembles the dogmatic religious fundamentalism these atheists claim to reject.

They are actually a small portion of atheists though, like the fundies they are just a loud group. Religious people and atheists in the main are well thought out, and the implication that I'm not familiar with the religion I grew up learning, or that any atheist isn't familiar with their parent religion is silly.

People don't spontaneously stop believing their parents religion.

[One Degree]

I believe most atheists started out as not finding any comfort in their religion and stopped attending church. Society then demanded to know what their religion was. They have to label themselves. It is required. They randomly choose agnostic or atheist. Not a great deal of thought required, just enough to justify a label society accepts.

[Zionist Nationalist]

My parents are atheist I was raised without religion and I have no desire to join any religion they all look stupid to me and I know a lot about religion I know much more than the average Christian or Jewish believer.

[anticlimacus]

They are actually a small portion of atheists though, like the fundies they are just a loud group. Religious people and atheists in the main are well thought out, and the implication that I'm not familiar with the religion I grew up learning, or that any atheist isn't familiar with their parent religion is silly.

People don't spontaneously stop believing their parents religion.

Maybe...although I would say that the extremely vocal fundamentalists groups and the well thought out people are both in the minority. To simply make a conscious decision to reject one's parent's religion or religion is not necessarily thought out any more than the conscious decision to believe is. Both could be purely emotional responses, or a result of ignorant views about the world, other traditions, etc.

Simply put, we do not have a world filled with many philosophers or theologians--professional or amateur.

[mikema63]

Maybe...although I would say that the extremely vocal fundamentalists groups and the well thought out people are both in the minority. To simply make a conscious decision to reject one's parent's religion or religion is not necessarily thought out any more than the conscious decision to believe is. Both could be purely emotional responses, or a result of ignorant views about the world, other traditions, etc.

That could be true if rejecting religion was easy or simple, it isn't.