[annatar1914]

Well, @annatar1914, when you have the same people who are involved in the indoctrination and grooming of children into their ideology, and to de-stigmatize pedophiles, it's a small step to go towards anti-semitism.

@Godstud :

Just so. Read up on Muhammad and his 9 year old wife Aisha and you can guess why

[Godstud]

@annatar1914 I reject that 9 yr old bride nonsense. No evidence is given that there was consummation of marriage. Women were married when they had their first periods, as well, so it is within the realm of possibility that this girl was considered a WOMAN by their definition, at the time. Most females will start puberty when they're 8 to 13 years old. This was around 700 AD, as well. Not exactly the high point of humanity, with the average life expectancy to be close to 40 years of age.

We cannot hope to hold our ancestors accountable for behavior that differs from our, now. The world is a different place. We know more. We have more information. We are more educated. We have differing views about what is normal and acceptable, and what is not.

I am not attacking Islam, because it's just another Abrahamic religion. Technically, they have the same relative laws as Christianity and Judaism. It's how people interpret things that causes the problems...

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914 I reject that 9 yr old bride nonsense. No evidence is given that there was consummation of marriage. Women were married when they had their first periods, as well, so it is within the realm of possibility that this girl was considered a WOMAN by their definition, at the time. Most females will start puberty when they're 8 to 13 years old. This was around 700 AD, as well. Not exactly the high point of humanity, with the average life expectancy to be close to 40 years of age.

We cannot hope to hold our ancestors accountable for behavior that differs from our, now. The world is a different place. We know more. We have more information. We are more educated. We have differing views about what is normal and acceptable, and what is not.

@Godstud :

I get that, but they give themselves justification for it right now. And slavery, cannibalism in some circumstances, etc ..

All that aside, I'd think you would agree that there's enough room for serious concern.

[Godstud]

The way they are interpreting it NOW is definitely cause for concern. We shouldn't still be thinking like it's 700 AD.

[annatar1914]

The way they are interpreting it NOW is definitely cause for concern. We shouldn't still be thinking like it's 700 AD.

@Godstud :

Some things though are wrong anytime, or conversely, right.

But I'll be generous and say that I believe that some of these people have had themselves and their warrior religion re-weaponized, reactivated.

This is why throughout this thread I've made mention of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and Khomeinism, because this is where and how It became reactivated and updated in a hostile way for modern times.

[Rich]

Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B

Puts Christian marry your rapist laws into perspective. Islam was really just a continuation of Talmudic Judaism. The only real difference was that although Jews were very happy to own Goy slaves, they lacked the ability to takes slaves on the industrial scale of the early Arab conquerors.

[annatar1914]

Puts Christian marry your rapist laws into perspective. Islam was really just a continuation of Talmudic Judaism. The only real difference was that although Jews were very happy to own Goy slaves, they lacked the ability to takes slaves on the industrial scale of the early Arab conquerors.

@Rich :

Whatever similarities between Talmudism or Islamic Sharia law or any other systems of religious legalism, it is the Sharia law that has the most chance anywhere of being implemented. And in itself there's nothing sinister in that, because there are always people who wish not too surprisingly to make of their religion an entire way of life.

" Religion" of course being defined as I do by calling it a "system of belief that claims to answer questions of ultimate universal concern. "

[annatar1914]

@Godstud , @Potemkin , @Verv :

So some time back I spoke to the need to " confront" Modernism in it's essence, although I knew and know now that that wouldn't be the popular route most would take.

Because some few mystics I mentioned were SEEMINGLY far sighted enough that they incorporated the essence of Modernism into the structure of the religious belief systems they were creating (even as they said they were " restoring" not creating), and this satisfies the appearances to most.

While it would appear that subsequently I veered into other aspects of what this thread is about (rejecting the West and it's civilization as something wrong) , these thoughts of the future remain the primary consideration: the cosmology that posits a multitude of worlds to journey to, and persons from these worlds to encounter.

These wars and conflicts going on now are absolutely about two visions of the future whether people consciously realize it or not.

One vision maintains that there is something special and unique about us and the world we live in, and the primary drama is right here on Earth.

But the other does not, but desires us to go out and make ourselves and our world special and unique, a group of Earthly human civilizations becoming a planetary civilization, then becoming a universal one.

You will find a remarkable lining up of beliefs and ideas coinciding with the people holding them with one broad vision, and another on the other side.

The situation is, is that after over 500 years, almost everyone we're led to thinkis in the Modernist camp to a degree personally.

But is that really true?

I'm surprised by the number of people who doubt the lunar landings for example. Not stupid uneducated people. I bet that the same people, whether correct or not, probably do not buy into a number of other narratives either. Perhaps an extreme example on the outlying edge of a set of individuals, but descriptive enough of what I'm trying to write.

As @Godstud , said, I think it's the same people that push and hold to these different things, that all have an underlying theme or basis.

Edit: and I do want to write about that some more, because it wouldn't seem to be readily apparent that to hold a certain view on say, gender reassignment, would mean that one also has a certain opinion on the conflict in the Ukraine or the Middle East.

But somehow, I can say at least on an anecdotal level, many but not all of the same people who hold a pro trans view are pro Hamas/Palestine , anti-Russia/pro-the Ukraine, and so forth.

Why? I'm not sure exactly because while I'm the opposite of all this I do have a more complex worldview. I can explain for example that I'm pro life, anti euthanasia and a socialist, whereas in the West, most people who are one of those are not the others and cannot seem to understand my linkage of the three, to the point that I find all three quite necessary and integral to each other.

My readers may differ with me on this, but understand with me that today, there really are two camps basically, with some more committed or understanding than others, or aware of the dividing lines, but they're still there .....

2nd Edit:

Part of it is the usual problem with mankind, which is the disconnect between head and heart, whether slight or an abyss it does exist. Truth though comes from the Heart, the Nous, which can enlighten the mind and indeed the whole body the more the disordered passions are brought under control.

We all know the truth of an issue, but it's not often organized in a propositional manner, often quite the opposite. Rather we are informed by our conscience and we choose to follow it, or not.

But nobody is an island. We are surrounded by ourselves. We are influenced one way or another in action or reaction to that which is within us and that which is outside us. None of this is new or shocking, it seems rather simple even. Listening to that voice with such a chatter inside and out can be difficult though, most especially without humility.

And collectively speaking, Modern Civilization isn't exactly the most humble.

[annatar1914]

Delete

[annatar1914]

@Godstud , @Potemkin , @Verv , @Political Interest :

I was recently reminded of something that George Orwell said that still seems timely:

“Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various ‘party lines.'”

In " Homage to Catalonia".

But eventually the truths come out, because I believe that Right is Might instead of the obverse, even though it doesn't often appear that way in everyday experience.

Until it does, a defining Event which manifestly shows another Hand at work.

[Potemkin]

@Godstud , @Potemkin , @Verv , @Political Interest :

I was recently reminded of something that George Orwell said that still seems timely:

“Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various ‘party lines.'”

In " Homage to Catalonia".

But eventually the truths come out, because I believe that Right is Might instead of the obverse, even though it doesn't often appear that way in everyday experience.

Until it does, a defining Event which manifestly shows another Hand at work.

Most people love being lied to. And the bigger the lie, the more eager they are to believe it. Because lies comfort people, whereas the truth irritates them. But all the evils of the world begin with lies.

[Tainari88]

Most people love being lied to. And the bigger the lie, the more eager they are to believe it. Because lies comfort people, whereas the truth irritates them. But all the evils of the world begin with lies.

You are very right Potemkin.

And the most terrible lie is the one you tell yourself. And if you believe a lie about yourself? That is the biggest betrayal of all.

The truth is often painful and difficult.

I get the worst criticism from people who are told something truthful from my writing. They hate it with a passion. I always say, what is it about what I said that bothers you? Is it the reality that I told you a truth you did not want to confront? That is how you grow. It is painful stuff.

Often if you have health issues that are not based on a genetic defect from birth but from lifestyle? It is about the choices you make daily. It is hard to admit your choices are causing the issues you might battle every day.

One has to admit the truth. No matter how painful it might become for you. The truth shall set you free.

Not discipline. Not responsibility. Because being responsible and disciplined by defending a lie is a wasted effort. The truth with a disciplined and responsible approach is far more important. And effective.

Lies will waste time, effort, and lives. It is the definition of failure in a real sense. If you try something and it does not work, and through that failure, you gain knowledge and discover the truth? It is a great thing. You learned from the failure. But then working on something that you know is a lie, but you can't face the truth and as such you continue to ignore the truth because you lack the courage of the confronting of truth? You will be failing unnecessarily and immorally too. Ignorance is not bliss in that sense. It never has been Potemkin.

[annatar1914]

Most people love being lied to. And the bigger the lie, the more eager they are to believe it. Because lies comfort people, whereas the truth irritates them. But all the evils of the world begin with lies.

@Potemkin :

Modernity, which is the next to the last phase of Western Civilization in it's current iteration, was built upon Necessity, Fate.

If even the gods or God Himself is constrained by a force or standard outside themselves or Himself (usually also predicated on basically an eternal and infinite cosmos, self subsistant) , then the only difference between the gods/God and man (who is equally constrained by Necessity/Fate) is the degree of power between them. And perhaps some men may think themselves able to storm Heaven and become gods also. Ruling over other men

With the right technology.

As you said, starts with a lie, a big lie.

[annatar1914]

You are very right Potemkin.

And the most terrible lie is the one you tell yourself. And if you believe a lie about yourself? That is the biggest betrayal of all.

The truth is often painful and difficult.

I get the worst criticism from people who are told something truthful from my writing. They hate it with a passion. I always say, what is it about what I said that bothers you? Is it the reality that I told you a truth you did not want to confront? That is how you grow. It is painful stuff.

Often if you have health issues that are not based on a genetic defect from birth but from lifestyle? It is about the choices you make daily. It is hard to admit your choices are causing the issues you might battle every day.

One has to admit the truth. No matter how painful it might become for you. The truth shall set you free.

Not discipline. Not responsibility. Because being responsible and disciplined by defending a lie is a wasted effort. The truth with a disciplined and responsible approach is far more important. And effective.

Lies will waste time, effort, and lives. It is the definition of failure in a real sense. If you try something and it does not work, and through that failure, you gain knowledge and discover the truth? It is a great thing. You learned from the failure. But then working on something that you know is a lie, but you can't face the truth and as such you continue to ignore the truth because you lack the courage of the confronting of truth? You will be failing unnecessarily and immorally too. Ignorance is not bliss in that sense. It never has been Potemkin.

@Tainari88 :

Hey I saw that you posted, and your posts are always thoughtful and welcome: you make a person think.

Lies are like every evil, self defeating for the evil in question.

It's like a woman I knew years ago who I knew liked me (information from mutual friends) who was hurt that I never came up and asked her out like another man would. I said that I wouldn't date her because I noticed she was constantly lying about little things to everyone. She was floored, said defensively that " everyone tells little lies". I replied that if she was lying about the little things, it was certain she was lying about the greater things in life too.

But I continued talking to her. She was very deeply abused growing up, and she lied to survive those terrible childhood years. It had become habitual long after her personal nightmare was over.

[Tainari88]

@annatar1914 you are right about lies. They become habits. And eventually unless you have the personal courage to admit the lies and change for real? It is not going to go well in life.

The most important thing one can do is be true to oneself. Why do we change over time? Why do we want change?

Nothing stays the same in life.

I would say that in order to have a good relationship being honest is fundamental.

Also admitting fault when it is your fault.

Not being malicious and not being inconsiderate.

Trust and respect are foundational for a relationship that is productive.

[annatar1914]

@Tainari88 , @Potemkin , @Godstud , @Verv , @Political Interest :

An example of Western Christian cluelessness:


"The Fleming Foundation

ACCESS / FLEMING / FREE CONTENT0
Islamophilia, the American Dream
BY THOMAS FLEMING · PUBLISHED NOVEMBER 21, 2023 · UPDATED NOVEMBER 21, 2023

Many Americans, liberals and conservatives alike, have been astonished by the upsurge of support for Islam in general and Hamas in particular among leftists and members of the LGBT& “community.” “Don’t they know that Islam subjugates women, imposes severe penalties for all deviant behavior, and is intolerant of sexual diversity? Can they possibly fail to realize that they would be among the first victims lined up against the wall?”

It depends. Clearly, the kids who are converting to Islam after reading—or at least claiming to have read—Osama bin Laden’s address to America are as clueless about Islam as they are about school, work, church, marriage, religion, philosophy, art, music, and the rules for any sport more complex than Frolf.

Their Gen-X parents, almost but not quite as dumb as they are, have lived their own lives in a never-ending rebellion against human freedom and dignity, and, turning over their children to state-run or state-dominated institutions—daycare, school, college, the media, TV and Tik Tok—they have made sure that the kids would turn out to be goose-stepping robots.

It is a waste of time to wonder what they are thinking—children, parents even grandparents—because they have never entertained for even a moment a single thought that was not implanted into their memory banks.

More interesting is the case of the academic leftists and their disciples. Most of them are at least dimly aware of the severity of serious Islamic regimes, though they have, nonetheless, acquiesced in the American regime’s wars to overthrow less intolerant regimes in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Libya. Do patriotic Christians ever ask themselves why their government always seem to target Arab governments that tolerate Christians? Do they even care?

But leftists who have been to school—one hesitates to describe them as educated—know perfectly well that their enemy for the past three centuries has not been Islam but Christianity. The revolutionary movement, which had its origins in the Renaissance and put forth its first noxious fruits in the French Revolution, has always been primarily devoted to the destruction of Christianity. Écrasez l’infame, whined Voltaire, Écrasez le consubtantiel.

In the narrow confines of their little minds, they are firmly convinced that once they have eliminated Christ, they will be able to deal with the lesser, if more violent evil that is Islam. It is a bit similar to the political pattern you can see in places like Medieval Tuscany, where Lucca allied with Florence to oppose their neighbor Pisa, or in the longstanding Italian political phenomenon known as “transversalism,” which encouraged the far left and the far right to unite against the liberal center.

So, don’t waste time and energy wondering why leftists do what leftists do, much less why they "think" what they say they think.. The academics, who have learned only theoretical abstractions in their academic sweatshops, are no more independent-minded than the kids taking the latest Tik Tok Challenge: How long will it take a Lesbian convert to be jailed and raped, when he/she/it moves to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? The point on which they all agree is that Christianity is evil and, as Hilary Clinton has so accurately expressed it, the election of a conservative Republican—whether Trump or De Santis would spell the end of America as we know it. Magari, as they say in Italian, if only!"

Thomas Fleming is a learned and upstanding American Conservative, used to run the" Chronicles" magazine, decent fellow. I agree with some of the things he's saying.

But Mr Fleming wants to buttress and restore a "Western Christianity" that has been an absolute disaster for mankind, arguably greater than that record of Islam in this respect. Orthodox Christians have been warred upon by both, but truthfully Muslims have been closer and more respectful than the " Christianity" that seeked to extirpate the Faith from the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 AD to the camp at Jasenovac in the Great Patriotic War and much more,where so many Orthodox Serbs were tortured and murdered by Catholic Ustasha Croats.

So no, Mr Fleming, to the Devil with your cure worse than the disease. The people you rail against are stupid and deranged and wicked and will end badly, sure. But people like you....

Made them!

[Tainari88]

@annatar1914 I think what QatzelOk said recently is the answer to Thomas Fleming. Spirituality without humility is just fantasyland and Racism. And that is the problem. For all of the religions like Muslims, Christians and Jews. If they fail to be sufficiently humble and realize that they are not the special ones. That the task of the truly spiritual is to subjugate their egos and be humble and serve other humans regardless of where they are from and what nationality, creed, and so on? The wars would stop. The blood would not be spilled.

But if you hold on to egos and so on? The lack of respect for differences will make it all an exercise in fantasyland and racist or discriminatory beliefs. Because they are leftists and do this, because they are not faithful to these dogmas? They are a threat to civilization.

In the end it is all not valid unless humility is the center of all spiritual practices.

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin ,

@Verv ,

@Political Interest :

Going to go into some detail on a kind of rebuttal of this criticism of the God of the Old Testament:

https://www.scaruffi.com/politics/judaism.html


"Is the Old Testament a Book of Peace?
Back to History | by Piero Scaruffi
TM, ®, Copyright © 2016 Piero Scaruffi All rights reserved.
We talk so much about "radical Islam" that one cannot help thinking "what is the Jewish or Christian equivalent"? It's in "the Bible", and, technically speaking, it is the Old Testament of the Christians and the Tanakh of the Jews (pretty much the same collection of stories). Radical Christians and radical Jews believe the letter of this book.
The greatest genocider of all time is the god of the Old Testament, sometimes called El and sometimes Yahweh. He kills the entire humankind (except one family) in the flood (Genesis 6-8), annihilates Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19), kills 185,000 men (2 Kings 19:35), and even slaughters all the Egyptian firstborn sons (Exodus 12:29). This same genocidal god then commands the Jews to exterminate the Canaanites (Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21), the Amalekites (Exodus 17:13) and the Midianites (Numbers, 31:17-18).
The people of this god (call them Jews or whatever you want to call them) kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, and take their money, cattle, wives and children (Genesis 34:13-29); kill Og, his sons and all his people (Numbers 21:35; Deuteronomy 3:6); kill about 10,000 Moabites (Judges 3:29); and exterminate the people of Sihon (Deuteronomy 2:33-34).
Other massacres approved by Yahweh include: Joshua destroys Jericho and kills all its inhabitants (Joshua 6:21-27); Joshua kills 12,000 people in Ai (Joshua 8:22-25); Joshua exterminates the Gibeonites, the people of Makkedah, the Libnahites, the people of Lachish, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, and the Debirites (Joshua 10:10-39); Joshua exterminates the Anakim (Joshua 11:21-23); Elisha has 42 children killed (Kings 2:22-23); Elijah burns to death 102 men (Kings 1:10-12).
Mass murder is all over the place in the Old Testament, and rarely condemned as evil: Abimelech kills 69 of his brothers (Judges 9:5); Doeg the Edomite kills 85 priests and all the men, women and children (Samuel 22:18-19); David kills 200 Philistines to purchase his first wife with their foreskins (Samuel 18:25-27); Abishai kills 300 men (Samuel 23:18, Chronicles 11:20); Elijah kills 450 priests (Kings 18:22-40); Shamgar kills 600 Philistines (Judges 3:31); Amaziah kills 10,000 Edomites (2 Kings 14:5); Samson kills 1000 men (Judges 15:14-15); the Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel (Judges 8:15-21); the children of Levi kill 3,000 men (Exodus 32:27-29).
The teachings of the Old Testament include death by stoning (Numbers 15:32-36 and Joshua 7:19-26), beheading (Numbers 25-4), mass rape (Numbers 31:9, and especially the 32,000 virgins in Numbers 31:17-18), and human sacrifice (Leviticus 27:29, and in Numbers 31:17-18 the 32 girls who are not raped), all condoned or commanded by Yahweh.
In general, it doesn't take a computer to realize that throughout the Old Testament the number of sentences having to do with hatred is much greater than the number of sentences having to do with love. Is the Quran a book of peace?

TM, ®, Copyright © 2010 Piero Scaruffi All rights reserved."


Since it is technically correct in it's " whataboutism" whenever critiques of the Allah of the Koran are made.... We're going to set aside the writer's specific dishonesties and half truths to look at where he's right.

Has it not been my belief all this time on this thread, that there is a " Magian" or Monotheistic complex of cultures? While the Western civilization is an ongoing phase of the Greco Roman, what might be called the Faustian or Romano Germanic Civilizational phase, also known here as Modernity?

The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. While numerous people over the centuries have tried to explain away or divide the two as the Marcionites did as early as the 2nd century AD.

I'm not one of those people. I don't always understand it on some level, but I accept it on Faith and love the God Who Is Jesus of Nazareth, Who also sent the Flood, killed the Egyptians, burned the Cities of the Plain, and died on the Cross and rose again.

The questions raised by the article are timely because of the present conflicts, but while the Muslim picture of the Islamic Allah is wrong when speaking and writing of God, it isn't so wrong as to be completely unrecognizable.

[Potemkin]

@Potemkin ,

@Verv ,

@Political Interest :

Going to go into some detail on a kind of rebuttal of this criticism of the God of the Old Testament:

[…]

Since it is technically correct in it's " whataboutism" whenever critiques of the Allah of the Koran are made.... We're going to set aside the writer's specific dishonesties and half truths to look at where he's right.

Has it not been my belief all this time on this thread, that there is a " Magian" or Monotheistic complex of cultures? While the Western civilization is an ongoing phase of the Greco Roman, what might be called the Faustian or Romano Germanic Civilizational phase, also known here as Modernity?

The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. While numerous people over the centuries have tried to explain away or divide the two as the Marcionites did as early as the 2nd century AD.

I'm not one of those people. I don't always understand it on some level, but I accept it on Faith and love the God Who Is Jesus of Nazareth, Who also sent the Flood, killed the Egyptians, burned the Cities of the Plain, and died on the Cross and rose again.

The questions raised by the article are timely because of the present conflicts, but while the Muslim picture of the Islamic Allah is wrong when speaking and writing of God, it isn't so wrong as to be completely unrecognizable.

The New Testament makes zero sense if it is removed from the context of the Old Testament. Jesus did not set out to trash Judaism and invent a new religion of his own; on the contrary, he claimed to be fulfilling the Jewish religion. The God who destroyed the cities of the plain and ordered the Jews to commit genocide against their enemies is the same God who allowed himself to be scourged and then nailed to the Cross, to suffer an agonising and humiliating death at the hands of his enemies. The same God. Who is God, that he must conform to our expectations?

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin ,
@Tainari88 ,
@Godstud ,
@Verv ,
@Political Interest , and others:

Today is time for a deeply felt post.

Deeply felt, because recent events in my personal life have struck home the precarity of memory, of life, and the fluidity of time, the radical contingency of being.

But also, the perspective of belief in the Eternal, Blessed be He, Blessed is the Holy Trinity now and ever and unto the ages of ages! And in the Mother of God, without the all pure champion leader and mediatrix I could not have survived these past few years....

Painful as it has been in this life recently, I have thanked God that while I had to retreat further from regular everyday life I was still able to exercise some discernment, at least eventually, in some matters at least. Modern categories of description fail me. I know that what I believe has been tested and refined, I then have no need for particular labels in many cases. Just a desire for justice and truth and goodness to prevail animated by faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His teachings and commandments.

I know that I feel far from Him, which is the same reason Kitezh remains hidden:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitezh# ... 0%B5%D0%B6)%20is,Novgorod%20Oblast%20in%20central%20Russia.

Antitype to Kitezh remains very much observable, even if its meanings are sometimes hidden:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

Are the faithful to be Rome or Athens, or to be Jerusalem? Some make the choice both starkly and repeatedly:

In any case, the conflict persists, with Modernity in dumb incomprehension for the most part except for a few souls like Neitszche .

It will become clearer. Humanity versus the Aristocratic principle. Some in the West understand:

And while understanding, find themselves on the other side. Only caveat I have is the last video's contention that Orthodoxy is a pagan and syncretic religion.