[War Angel]

Well, partly because we have become more secular and we do not engage primitive conquest, like some other religious groups.

Correct.

I was referring to you statement that Christians do not care about Jerusalem. I was not referring to control, or any other political aspect of the situation, but rather, I was refuting your statement that christians don't care about jerusalem

I was using 'care' as in 'would actively do something about'. Jerusalem is somewhat important to many Christians, but Christianity today is more spiritual than it was 1,000 years ago. It no longer places such importance on these material matters.

[Sephardi]

Fuck giving the land away. Arabs started pogroms in the Emirate of Palestine just because of increasing Jewish immigration and supported the colonizing British bastards plan to stop holocaust survivors from immigrating there. The Irgun did their job and forced the British out. Then the Jews accepted a plan which would give them only 10% of the original Mandate while another 10% goes to Western Palestinians and 80% goes to Eastern Jordianian Palestinians.

[Maas]

Fuck giving the land away. Arabs started pogroms in the Emirate of Palestine just because of increasing Jewish immigration and supported the colonizing British bastards plan to stop holocaust survivors from immigrating there. The Irgun did their job and forced the British out. Then the Jews accepted a plan which would give them only 10% of the original Mandate while another 10% goes to Western Palestinians and 80% goes to Eastern Jordianian Palestinians.

People who immigrate to some place to give land away....
There is defenately something really odd about that.
so fuck that indeed.

and it's not really that odd what the British did.
The US has imigration stops as well for people, so has the EU, so has EVERY country.
you're making this in an anti-semitic rant about something the entire world does every day to all kinds of ethnic people
"but us poor Jews... everybody hates us bla bla" you actually believe it

And your using the holocaust as some lame excuse.
So the Jews got slaughtered by the milions... didn't stop them to ethnic cleanse a country within the same generation.

[sebbysteiny]

Oxymoron

Good questions, but I think they could be hammered out.

These arn't small details. This goes to the heart of government and what a state is. You are suggesting make Jerusalem a city that is neither part of Israel or part of a Palestinian state. So I assume you arn't suggesting tyrany or anarky. So who do you suggest makes the law? Will it be democratic? If so, who gets the right to vote? And who'se Supreme Court is the Supreme Court for this state?

I would wager my idea will never happen, because neither side would compromise on this.

Irrelevant. Your idea is being given a fair hearing and I'm testing it right now. So please answer the questions. In your view is this a solution that you could sell to either side? And why is it you are putting West Jerusalem into the equation despite the fact that this is not contested as land for the Palestinian state?

Please also answer my question about why you think Christianity, either acting through a nation or the church, ought to get a say in Jerusalem's affairs (having regard to my Mecca point).


Asad

It would be meant to represent Palestinian Christians. Just because no Christian nation has made claims to Jerusalem, it does not mean it is of no importance to the christian people.

I don't care about whether it is merely 'important'. 'Important' does not give you a say over its affairs. There are religious shrines around the world. The only people who have a say over the city in which it sits are the national authorities. Mecca is a Saudi Arabian city and Iran does nto get a say. So why should any Christian body have a say? The Jews get a say though Israel0. So do the Muslims though the Palestinains. If nobody else has rights over Jerusalem then nobody else can control the lives of those that live there.

If there were to be joint custody over the city by the Jews and muslims, there is no reason the christians should be left out.

Yes there is. The Chirstians have no legitimate right to a piece of the pie. They have no business even trying to get such a say. It's a matter that only concerns the Israelis, the Palestinians and the inhabbitants of Jerusalem. Christianity is not particularly relevant to any of those groups. Why do you think Christians have a right not to be left out?

[Asad]

I don't care about whether it is merely 'important'. 'Important' does not give you a say over its affairs. There are religious shrines around the world. The only people who have a say over the city in which it sits are the national authorities. Mecca is a Saudi Arabian city and Iran does nto get a say. So why should any Christian body have a say? The Jews get a say though Israel0. So do the Muslims though the Palestinains. If nobody else has rights over Jerusalem then nobody else can control the lives of those that live there.

There are Christian Palestinians, and Christian Israelis. Just because they are a minority group, it should not mean they are not represented. The christians would be represented by the palestinian authority.

It's a matter that only concerns the Israelis, the Palestinians and the inhabbitants of Jerusalem. Christianity is not particularly relevant to any of those groups. Why do you think Christians have a right not to be left out?

You are sadly misinformed. Christianity is particularly relevant to the Palestinian struggle. Whilst our number have been falling, Christian Palestinians have played an important role in the Palestinian struggle.

[War Angel]

The christians would be represented by the palestinian authority.

Christians' main representation is in outgoing flights, and the cemetaries. Life is extremely difficult for Christians within the Territories - ask anyone in Beit Lechem, for example. There are almost no Christians left anywhere else.

Whilst our number have been falling, Christian Palestinians have played an important role in the Palestinian struggle.

Hardly. I cannot recall any Christian terrorist or terrorist-supporter. Only Muslims.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on this?

[kraychik]

I think Christians compose a fraction of a percent of the Palestinian population. So sebby's point of Christianity not being particularly relevant to the Palestinians as a whole stands.

War Angel wrote:

Christians' main representation is in outgoing flights, and the cemetaries.

Dark humour, but true.

[Asad]

Christians' main representation is in outgoing flights, and the cemetaries. Life is extremely difficult for Christians within the Territories - ask anyone in Beit Lechem, for example. There are almost no Christians left anywhere else.

I am not denying that life is difficult for chrisitians, and this is for a wide variety of reasons. There is still a large christian population in Jerusalem and surrounding cities however.

Hardly. I cannot recall any Christian terrorist or terrorist-supporter. Only Muslims.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on this?

Christian participation in resistance was especially significant in the 60's and 70's. Look up George Habash for example, he was the founder of the PFLP.

[sebbysteiny]

Asad

Your point about Christians being a minority in Israel and also a minority in the PA (whether or not they are an oppressed minority) is a good one. You say that the PA must represent Christian interests. However, given the state of Hamas and Fatah, I'm not sure this is a realistic possiblity. Israel, however, appears far more likely to safeguard the rights of its Christians. So the duty to represent all its people, Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Jedi, falls on both Israel and the PA.

But this does not mean the Christians ought to be given a say in their own right. The Christian say, therefore, must be limited to their influence over both Israel and the PA. In which case, only the governments of Israel and the PA may have a say over Jerusalem and if Christians cannot gain any noticable political influence over either government then they they cannot have a say.

So we can now knock "Christians" out of the equation and focus only on the PA and Israel and how they and they alone can share Jerusalem.

Is this acceptable to you and Oxymoron?

[War Angel]

There is still a large christian population in Jerusalem and surrounding cities however.

Yes - and they are Israeli citizens.

Christian participation in resistance was especially significant in the 60's and 70's. Look up George Habash for example, he was the founder of the PFLP.

I'll take your word for it. Anything more recent and relevant?

[Asad]

Your point about Christians being a minority in Israel and also a minority in the PA (whether or not they are an oppressed minority) is a good one. You say that the PA must represent Christian interests. However, given the state of Hamas and Fatah, I'm not sure this is a realistic possiblity. Israel, however, appears far more likely to safeguard the rights of its Christians. So the duty to represent all its people, Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Jedi, falls on both Israel and the PA.

To some extent, christian politicians continue to hold some important positions in the PA. Hopefully this will continue.

I'll take your word for it. Anything more recent and relevant?

The PFLP took part in the second intifada. They continue to have a limited political influence. It is important to note that the PFLP is not specifically a christian organisation, but a secular marxist one.

[War Angel]

The PFLP took part in the second intifada. They continue to have a limited political influence. It is important to note that the PFLP is not specifically a christian organisation, but a secular marxist one.

.... so, they're not Christian at all.

I've never encountered or even heard of Christian Arabs involved in terrorism.

[sebbysteiny]

Asad

To some extent, christian politicians continue to hold some important positions in the PA. Hopefully this will continue.

So can we agree that no Christian body should have any influence in Jerusalem and that the only influence any Christian representative may have would be indirect by influencing either the PA, Israel's government or both?

[Asad]

.... so, they're not Christian at all.

I've never encountered or even heard of Christian Arabs involved in terrorism.

They have a strong christian following, their founder was christian.

So can we agree that no Christian body should have any influence in Jerusalem and that the only influence any Christian representative may have would be indirect by influencing either the PA, Israel's government or both?

It depends. As was stated before in this forum, if sometime in the future Jerusalem is put under international control, and is administered by religious groups, then yes, the Christians should be represented in their own rights.
However, as it stands now, the Christians will have to make do with representation through either the PA, ot the Israeli government. THis si simply due to their low numbers.

[sebbysteiny]

Asad

It depends. As was stated before in this forum, if sometime in the future Jerusalem is put under international control, and is administered by religious groups, then yes, the Christians should be represented in their own rights.

Isn't the purpose of this "international control" to find a way for Israel and the Palestinians to share Jerusalem? If so, it makes no sense that the "international control" be another way for the international community outside of Israel or Palestine to get a piece of the pie. And therefore, I do not see why any Christian body other than as represented through Israel or the PA has a right to a say over how Israel and the Palestinians choose to share Jerusalem.

If you give the Christians a say in their own right, do you not turn this idea into an obsticle to peace rather than a solution to the difficulties between Israel and the Palestinains?

[Maas]

So can we agree that no Christian body should have any influence in Jerusalem and that the only influence any Christian representative may have would be indirect by influencing either the PA, Israel's government or both?

seems to me that eventhough religion has no place in western politics that an excuse has been found for extremists in this case if it would be up to you.