[GandalfTheGrey]

nlike some "third world countries" which have a capacity for progress, like China and India, the Muslim world, as I see it, doesn't seem to have even a speck of advancement which we consider progress in the West.

Those obsene rotating skyscapers with tennis courts on the roof, as well as the desert ski resorts in Dubai is exactly what we would consider "advancement" in the west. Now I could go all Qatzelok on you and challenge the western notion of "advancement" and "progress", but suffice it to say, where there is sufficient wealth (like in the Gulf states), there is every bit as many material structures of modernity and prosperity as the richest countries in the west.

Overall though, I think its far too much of a generalisation to say the entire muslim world lacks even "a speck of advancement". I seem to continually come back to Indonesia, but I think its a good example of a muslim success story - and its the biggest muslim country as well. Yes there is a long way to go, but after decades of brutal dictatorship, they have come a long way towards creating a working secular democracy - in only 10 years. Then there is Turkey - also democratic and staunchly secular. There are many modern and what you would call "advanced" muslim countries around the world.

Its far more sensible to look at regions rather than religion when categorising the developed world from the less developed world - eg Africa barring maybe 2 countries is a primitive hell hole (and overwhelmingly christian and/or pagan)

[danholo]

Those obsene rotating skyscapers with tennis courts on the roof, as well as the desert ski resorts in Dubai is exactly what we would consider "advancement" in the west.

I do not live in the "West". What I consider to be advancement is a lack of phallos symbols and that is what the Arab world is pretty much comprised of. I consider Qatzel to fit in the other category of this class. His aversion to the material phallos symbol is a symbol and target of worship in itself. Oh, I'm so against. But when it comes to facts and knowledge, he is a very well rounded ignoramus, and this is not ad hominem as it is true; His beliefs are in contradiction to fact. Then again, you agree with him in many things, so I would say you live in la-la land too...?

Overall though, I think its far too much of a generalisation to say the entire muslim world lacks even "a speck of advancement".

I was generalizing for the sake of discussion.

Its far more sensible to look at regions rather than religion when categorising the developed world from the less developed world - eg Africa barring maybe 2 countries is a primitive hell hole (and overwhelmingly christian and/or pagan)

I do look at regions and Africa is one of them. This doesn't seem to be the Africa board, though, and I'm not personally interested in Africa that much, except lately after meeting many Africans. Understanding how rich the place is and what potential it could bring us if it could be lifted up from its swamp is amazing. It really still remains a land left unexplored. Not in landmass, but in human prowess and ingenuity. The same can be said of the Muslim world/Middle Eastern countries. See, I know nothing about Indonesia. I am not saying that Islam is a recipe for backwardness, but the attitude of the people themselves. For Africans it is very difficult as they do not know any better. They live as they did thousands of years ago. If they are struck with lightning, they still accept is as the anger of the gods or the spirits or some other mumbo jumbo. So we must teach them. Of course, we could argue whether their existence is good thing, but we can agree that preserving something they have kept for so long must be of use. The same goes for my neighbors. Literacy and education are not ideals to aspire to in general. This has to change. I mean, the fact is, even if it isn't an ideal, it's not even an option! Also, I fear that this ideal is slowly dying out in our respective societies, probably leading to a slight decline in what I consider progress.

I frankly do not know how we are to come about this, however. Thankfully the Arab world is wealthy, and examples like Abood (sorry to use you) give clear sign as what could become of it. Also, it is not like I am not reading a book by an Arab intellectual as we speak. Ok, he calls himself "Levantine" so I don't know if he counts. Even so, I fear that the "cultured" and educated class of the Arab world might not be that powerful, or abuse their power i.e. don't use it to spread seeds but only to play tennis in their rotating tennis courts in high altitudes and speak English with a cultured British accent. And maybe it's just that those people just flee from this area. I suggest some sort of level headed generation of a handful of individuals who will instill ideas and new incentive for learning, knowledge and an all around will to solve problems of this world for the common good and lift their own societies up to new hights, and also retract the innate sense of dominance Islam brings; "We will rule the world" because "When Everything will be like this, everything will be good." So this learning also excludes fantasy tales of the past where everything was "perfect" so we must now return to living this way because it was "swell" and "everybody was happy".

[QatzelOk]

what potential it could bring us if it could be lifted up from its swamp is amazing. It really still remains a land left unexplored.

Africa has been explored by Euros intent on bringing it "out of its swamp" for many centuries.

These Euros have created some nasty swamps themselves, and they are all over Africa, just like American multinationals. And these Euro-American corporations are very politically involved (to say the least) in most African nations. They are constantly "bringing their shareholder profits out of swamps" by exploring the power of their own money against the poor people they are there to "save".

[PatrickMahoney]

Why doesn't this "bishop" move to the Vatican if he's a Christian. Or he can move to Europe or the US.

This "bishop" is an embarrassment to real Christians everywhere. Of course, there are always people that spoil it for the rest of us, churning out propaganda that harms all of humanity. Those people will never really understand the harm they are causing.

How hard is it for people to understand that Israel is a JEWISH nation, meaning that if you want to live there, you should be Jewish. Not Christian or Muslim. There are a dozen Muslim countries and dozens of Christian countries. Yet one Jewish nation the size of New Jersey is somehow unthinkable to the anti-Semites. Go figure.

[QatzelOk]

one Jewish nation the size of New Jersey is somehow unthinkable to the anti-Semites.

If it's built on top of someone else's land, then yes, it's unthinkable.

What would you think of giving New Jersey to the Palestinians?