[sebbysteiny]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

It seems that Obama and Goldstone have single handedly killed off Abbas and Fatah as a political force. The consequences could be dire.

The world has invested billions in trying to keep some kind of moderate leadership in the Palestinian territories and Obama has killed it completely.

What has he done to directly cause this?

1) Pushed too hard on settlements innitially not understanding that there was a reason past administrations had not pushed this issue.

Abbas then was forced to change his position and make stopping all settlements a pre-condition to peace. When Obama realised that the Arab side absolutely refused to give Israel anything in return, he backed down. Leaving Abbas stranded.

2) He pushed Abbas to withdraw his legal attack on Israel. The Arab street was furious and Abbas appears finished.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Abbas dutifully obeys everything that American and Israel tell him to do and you think that its the US thats the problem? Abbas and Fatah are destroying themselves - as they have been doing quite successfully for the last 2 decades - starting when his predecessor sold his soul and relinquished the Palestinian's rightful claim to the entire greater Palestine. Fatah rely on US money and US arms to suppress popular nationalism in the WB - thats the only way they can retain power.

[sebbysteiny]

The international community has invested billions so that moderate Palestinian leadership may emerge. And this leadership HAS won elections. And, up until Obama's handywork, Abbas was doing well in opinion polls.

Do you think all these billions was badly spent and instead we should have been assisting the extremists?

[GandalfTheGrey]

Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "international community" - though I suspect as usual it consists entirely of the US and Israel. I would imagine that the actual international community would be more interested in fostering a viable and corruption-free Palestinian leadership that reflects the true will of the Palestinian people. But thats been at the root of this whole problem - that an opportunist like Arafat could bulldoze a minority view through his people and completely derail any chance of a viable peace.

[pugsville]

conversely you can blame the israeli government by being pig headed wanting to have its cake and eat it to. a settlement freeze was a dead set no brainer without it it is impossible to take any israeli moves seriously. Yeah sure we neogaiate about the future of the west bank but in the mean time we will treat it like it is 100% ours, we will build what we want when we want. You and your neighbour have a dispute over were the boundary of your properties runs, he says sure lets talk but build a two storey building on part of the area in dispute how can you take this seriously? Standard operating procedure in dispute resolution , call a ceasefire, everyone stays where they are while you talk, simple , easy, straight forward, logical, understandable, ***NOPE*** israel is above that sort of crap. Really it's just sending out the signal that israel has no real intention of seriously talking, we have this now, and we'ell talk this bit while we're talking, oh the talks have gone on sooo long, we'll just take a little more. Seriously a settlement freeze is just a logical nessacity if you want any sort of peace deal.

Abbas made a bad gamble he was on the nose and he threw himself behind the settlement freeze, it was obivious it wasnt accepted that he was more or less finished. You do know that he just extended his own term, he should have faced a election some time ago, the reason he has not is that he would most likely lose, the world community has not put him under any real pressure to face that election. Like so often in dealing with thrid world nations, "good' leaders (normally meaning those towing the western line) are supported even when they are not democratic. Every one ( in the west, I not sure israel is, a Hamas west bank would be a god send to the Israeli right, just run the bull dozers and dont stop till they are all pushed into jordan ) is scared about Hamas possibly winning the election, that they are willing to overlook the democratic creditionals of fatah.

personally recognising the PLO as the sole representive of the Palestinian people was a bad mistake. They should have built up a democratic elected representive body. Handing the incumbent power to PLO and Arafat was naive, the corruption and what followed was just always going to happen. If a strong democratic system could have been built up maybe the PLO could have been repatriated in time without destroying palestinain democracy before it even existed.

[sebbysteiny]

Very quickly

Gandolf.

The "international community" is the quartet, the EU the US, Israel and Russia. In particular, the US and the EU.

Pugsville

We have been having over 30 years of peace negotiations without a full settlement freeze ever being demanded as a condition for negotiations. You say its a 'no brainer'. The international community has for years thought the opposite.

So why now? Why kill negotiations when they had been taking place perfectly well? Obama lept in without thinking, and he cornered Abbas into a no win situation.

[pugsville]

The Roadmap included a full settlement freeze. Look I just think it's a logical requirement, you're free to disagree. But I dont think too many would take Israel as being committed to any peace process where settlement just continues.

[GandalfTheGrey]

We have been having over 30 years of peace negotiations without a full settlement freeze ever being demanded as a condition for negotiations. You say its a 'no brainer'. The international community has for years thought the opposite.

Rubbish. Resolution 242 has been the basis for negotiations for over 40 years which calls for complete Israeli evacuation to the 1967 borders. The "international community" - that is the *actual* international community outside the US and Isreal, have in essense remained consistent on this point. Settlements are universally regarded as illegal and an impedement to a lasting agreement - even by the US. So yes, it is a "no brainer". Negotiations fundamentally hinge on not just a settlement freeze, but settlement evacuation.