[Tailz]

I am glad this happened. I've seen much anti-Israeli graffiti, and now they are fighting back ideology wise.

This is a good tactic to screw with Hamas's head, but that's just my opinion.

So if Hamas launches rockets at civilians, Israel should too?

[MaverickWhig]

Do you just let someone attack with a knife in a back alley?

[Maas]

great.... a person who claims that since we're fighting terrorist, we may act as terrorists too.

[sploop!]

That's so last year, man...

[MaverickWhig]

great.... a person who claims that since we're fighting terrorist, we may act as terrorists too.

Yeah actually, it's called fighting fire with fire.

And it works. See: Pablo Escobar and the Los Pepes.

[Tailz]

Do you just let someone attack with a knife in a back alley?

Using simple anecdotal comparisons against large scale organised conflicts does not work.

Yeah actually, it's called fighting fire with fire.

And it works. See: Pablo Escobar and the Los Pepes.

Israel has been trying to fight fire with fire for 50+ years and its not been working. So why keep going with a failed plan? Plus if we look at history we can see that such ideology has failed a number of groups. It failed Bush’s war on Terror, destroying two countries in order to destroy terrorists and the terrorists are still causing problems. The Axis and Allied Power of the Second World War tried to bomb each others populations into submission, and that only consolidated support for their respective governments.

Fighting fire with fire does not work – all you end up with is more ash.

[MaverickWhig]

First off, the failed War on terror? You seriously need to take a good hard at the world and what the U.S. is doing.

Second, Israel has actually been able to take down many terrorist uprisings when fighting fire with fire.

Look at Munich, they sent Mossad agents after the incident to terrorize the terrorists. And it did work, the PLO became solely political and no longer a violent terrorist group.

Hamas is something new, and the Israelis haven't really been THAT proactive with them as they were with the PLO.

Also, we have even used Delta Force and the Intellegence Support Activity in many situations take out threats. A very good example is Escobar, his death is a testament to how fighting fire with fire can work.

The Los Pepes were set up as basically a psychological operation against Escobar, which worked. He started making mistakes, he started to show his locations, and then one day...

Fire against fire does work if people stop complaining due to simplistic views they hold.

[sploop!]

Fire against fire does work if people stop complaining due to simplistic views they hold.

I think you might be onto something here. You hold a very simplistic view. And you think Fire against Fire works. Therefore you have no complaints. Excellent!

[MaverickWhig]

(Sarcasm on.) So I guess me explaining how taking down Pablo Escobar through a proxy Delta Force (Search Bloc) and at the same time a PSYOP group that is composed of paramilitaries who origonally worked for him and then stabbed him in the back and worked with us and the Colombian police in committing terrorism against the terrorist which caused him to weaken and show him self to us and then allowing us to take take him out though both a Delta Force Sniper and a Search Bloc entry team is simplistic? Gosh I guess it is. (Sarcasm off.)

[Tailz]

First off, the failed War on terror? You seriously need to take a good hard at the world and what the U.S. is doing.

The good work the USA has done? Alienated the Middle-eastern population against the West, engaged in supporting dictators in order to secure energy sources, proliferation nuclear weapons by helping India get into the atomic life cycle (with India not being a member of various no-proliferation pacts), destabilized Pakistan (mind you it was not that stable in the first place), and given a whole new generation of Muslims a reason to hate the west and carry on with Jihad. Such a wonderful job has been done during Bush’s time in office – gunboat diplomacy was back on the menu.

Second, Israel has actually been able to take down many terrorist uprisings when fighting fire with fire.

Terrorist uprisings? You’re not generalising all Palestinian uprisings as terrorism are you now – that would be generalising a vast population with the one assumption.

Look at Munich, they sent Mossad agents after the incident to terrorize the terrorists. And it did work, the PLO became solely political and no longer a violent terrorist group.

At the cost of killing innocent civilians in the process. But it could be rebuffed as the PLO turned to dialogue because Israel in turn was pushed towards dialogue by its Western allies (via Oslo and the USA). But even then, this also gave rise to resistance groups who still wanted to keep fighting. Which as lead on to groups like Islaimc Jihad and Hamas.

Hamas is something new, and the Israelis haven't really been THAT proactive with them as they were with the PLO.

Yes they have been, assassinating their political figureheads, arresting their political wing members, raiding their associated groups and bombing them from helicopters and aircraft – not to mention the recent incursion into Gaza!!

And yet after all this, Hamas still is willing to fight. So obviously just “fighting fire with fire” only creates more fire!

The Los Pepes were set up as basically a psychological operation against Escobar, which worked. He started making mistakes, he started to show his locations, and then one day...

From my memory, Los Pepes arose out of the blood feuds Escobar created by his own killing of rivals and other victims of his bloody way of dealing with people who get in his way.

Fire against fire does work if people stop complaining due to simplistic views they hold.

Yet it never worked in the Second World War or even the Korean or Vietnam wars where the death toll was so much greater – so why think fighting fire with fire will work now? Fighting fire with fire is the same idea as assassinating political rivals – yes it works to silence your detractors, because their dead, and you just end up being a murder. Doing thus does not make your stand point correct, moral, ethical, simply because you have wiped out those who criticise your point of view.

[MaverickWhig]

Terrorist uprisings? You’re not generalising all Palestinian uprisings as terrorism are you now – that would be generalising a vast population with the one assumption.

What do you think I'm talking about. I'm talking about Hamas and other groups alike.

At the cost of killing innocent civilians in the process. But it could be rebuffed as the PLO turned to dialogue because Israel in turn was pushed towards dialogue by its Western allies (via Oslo and the USA). But even then, this also gave rise to resistance groups who still wanted to keep fighting. Which as lead on to groups like Islaimc Jihad and Hamas.

Yes, and they will have to keep fighting new terrorist groups in the future as they pop up. As will many other countries. It's the truth of the world.

And yet after all this, Hamas still is willing to fight. So obviously just “fighting fire with fire” only creates more fire!

It took over a decade to kill Escobar and his organization. At some times it looked like he was going to win. BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP GOING JUST LIKE HE DOES.

From my memory, Los Pepes arose out of the blood feuds Escobar created by his own killing of rivals and other victims of his bloody way of dealing with people who get in his way.

No, Delta Force trained a Colombian police unit called the Search Bloc who's commander worked with the lead of the AUC (right-wing paramilitaries), who origonally were his personal army, to turn against him and kill everyone around him. This caused problems in Washington due to fears that DEA and Delta Force operators could possibly be working with the Los Pepes or giving them intel.

Yet it never worked in the Second World War or even the Korean or Vietnam wars where the death toll was so much greater – so why think fighting fire with fire will work now?

Because of other more RECENT and fluid examples: Pablo Escobar, the Israeli reaction to Munich, countless Delta Force operations which involed assassination, and the fact YOU said Hamas is winning right? Well aren't they committing terrorism? And the Israelis really haven't been THAT proactive with Hamas like they were with the PLO. So, the strategy of fire against fire does work.

[Tailz]

Because of other more RECENT and fluid examples: Pablo Escobar, the Israeli reaction to Munich, countless Delta Force operations which involed assassination, and the fact YOU said Hamas is winning right? Well aren't they committing terrorism? And the Israelis really haven't been THAT proactive with Hamas like they were with the PLO. So, the strategy of fire against fire does work.

You have misread me, I disagree Hamas is winning. It can’t win and I would not wish it to win – a victory for Hamas would be the annihilation of Israel and every Jew in the middle-east – obviously I don’t wish for that to happen (this assumes the Hamas charter still to be a current statement of Hamas goals). But nether is Israel defeating it. Peace in the middle-east will not be won though a military victory, it will not be won through a show of force.

So as much as you may think I’m supporting a Hamas win because of my debating position, I’m not. But nether am I supporting an Israel victory, as that would see the Palestinians lose their homes to colonial Zionism. I support a middle way – thus I support nether.

As for Hamas carrying out Terrorism, yes certainly a good number of their acts are terrorism, while others I would label as legitimate resistance against an oppressor. The same as I label a good number of Israeli actions as terrorism, while others I term as defensive acts against terrorism. As to the terms you chose, or that others use, depends upon the side they chose to support.

[MaverickWhig]

I am a Modern Whig, and our stance has always been a two state solution. But we obviously do not want Hamas in power of the PNA government. We support the Fatah being in control.

[Godstud]

The soldiers who did the act should be punished.

It is certainly better than killing someone and if both sides decided to have a graffiti war I would support it.
No guns, just spray cans and crayons.

[SouthBeirut]

But we obviously do not want Hamas in power of the PNA government. We support the Fatah being in control.

Oh, so now the Palestinians have masters that they should obey and vote as they want ? You support nothing. You're here just to give your opinion. Who do you really think you are to choose for the Palestinian people a government that they do not support and that lost the last democratic elections ?

[MaverickWhig]

Actually, I believe the Fatah won in the West Bank, and then elements of Hamas tried to use their military wing to kill their party leaders so they could take over that area.

Also, Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, Canada, European Union, and the United Kingdom and Australia consider the military wing ( Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) a terrorist group.

You support nothing.

So then you're trying to tell me what I can and con not support?

[Tailz]

I am a Modern Whig, and our stance has always been a two state solution. But we obviously do not want Hamas in power of the PNA government. We support the Fatah being in control.

We forced them to have elections, we should have respected the election result as much as they have to respect our elected leaders or Israeli elected leaders. We should have engaged the “government” we were planning to them create – instead of falling back onto factional alliances we feel we could manipulate the most. Because of the boycott of their elected leaders, we ended up for the roadmap to peace being blown out the proverbial window!

The soldiers who did the act should be punished.

It is certainly better than killing someone and if both sides decided to have a graffiti war I would support it.

I hope there are some sort of proceedings against the bigots, but I doubt the Israeli’s will follow through. If anything it will just be a show trial of some stooge fall guys so Israel can distract people from the real war criminals.

No guns, just spray cans and crayons.

If only we could reduce both sides to fighting with crayons.

Actually, I believe the Fatah won in the West Bank, and then elements of Hamas tried to use their military wing to kill their party leaders so they could take over that area.

Sure, in the low key civil war, both sides eliminated each other to gain control in their respeciave heartlands. Thus why Gaza is run by Hamas, and the West Bank by Fatah.

Also, Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, Canada, European Union, and the United Kingdom and Australia consider the military wing ( Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) a terrorist group.

And rightly so as their armed wings do use terrorism. But we should strengthen their political wings and show they can gain more by dialogue than through force of arms. At the moment they can see a simple truth: Keep resisting violent and Israel builds no settlements, engage in dialogue and peaceful negotiations and Israel expands its settlements.

[MaverickWhig]

And rightly so as their armed wings do use terrorism. But we should strengthen their political wings and show they can gain more by dialogue than through force of arms. At the moment they can see a simple truth: Keep resisting violent and Israel builds no settlements, engage in dialogue and peaceful negotiations and Israel expands its settlements.

That's the thing, you're going to have a impossible challenge ahead of you. Many groups have an impossible to beat propoaganda campaign in their region to beat. This happens in many Arab countries. Many in Iran believe Pepsi is an acrynom for "Pay Each Penny Save Israel", and that Jews sometimes eat mulim children during religious holidays.

It even can spill over into this country, during the begining of my party there was a fringe group of three people in New York state who called themselves the "American Whig Party". They said Jews were planting microchips into childrens' heads at places like Chucky Cheese so that they could explode the child's head if their parents ever disobey the "International K*** Conspiracy". They tried to vandalize our wikipedia page and website and their leader uses a different alias every time he vandalizes something.

They eventually changed their name to "United People's Party" and thus we are no longer worried about them.

[Tailz]

That's the thing, you're going to have a impossible challenge ahead of you. Many groups have an impossible to beat propoaganda campaign in their region to beat. This happens in many Arab countries. Many in Iran believe Pepsi is an acrynom for "Pay Each Penny Save Israel", and that Jews sometimes eat mulim children during religious holidays.

Yet dealing with the political wing over the militant wing, worked in relation to the IRA. Certainly your never going to get a perfectly smooth transition, some groups will have nothing on their mind apart from killing their enemy, even when peace has been achieved and a compromise reached. As we can already see, vendettas and revenge are a major driving force of Arab aggression and Israeli reprisals.

But you will get nowhere by simply ignoring the issues and just “fighting” onwards blindly.

[Godstud]

Yep. Peace in these situations is not gained on the battlefield, but at the peace table.
I really hope that something to foster a lasting peace is done soon in that region. The longer this chaos goes on, the more the people there, on both sides, suffer.