[Kman]

How old are you Kman? I really hope for your sake that you are no older than 10.

Im 24 although I dont see how that is important in regards to this subject.

How old are you Gandalf ?

[pugsville]

Christain beliefs have a strong strain of submission too. Many oppressive regiemes have used religion to prop them up and justify themselves. Religionous dogma inherantly is against people thinking for themselves, it is the utlamate "authority" cop out in any arguement.

Personaly I think religion is not morality, doing something because "god said so" is just "I was only following orders". You do the right think becuase it right not because someone told you to, otehrwise you can just be doing the wrong thing because someone told you to.

[Nandi]

It has everything to do with Islam, just the word itself means ''submission'', it preaches submission and when you dont fight for your freedom you lose it, because of this pretty much all the Islamic countries are oppressive.

All Abrahamic faiths have total submission to a higher deity as their basis. Haredi Judaism means "they who tremble in awe of God". Christianity too, adleast Catholicism, is just as much based on fear and submission. There is hardly any space for creative input and freedom of believe in any of them.

Your painfully obvious insistance on slandering Islam is puerile.

[Kman]

I wasnt talking about their belief in god, I was talking about the behavior that the the different religions promote and cause among its followers and clearly if you look at results then Islam produces some very different results in society than Judaism and Christianity, the 2 latter produce free and democratic societies while Islam produces oppressive societies.

It just blows my mind how some people will ignore reality, are you people totally blind? can you not see the correlation between X religion and the effects it has on a country?

Your painfully obvious insistance on slandering Islam is puerile.

How is it childish? im simply telling the truth.

Your just the typical multiculturalist fanatic that refuse to make any claims of superiority, you wanna claim that all religions are the same and promote the same values and ideals, that is simply false.

[GandalfTheGrey]

while Islam produces oppressive societies

Funny then how the largest muslim country in the world is a successful democracy, while the largest muslim population in any one country (India) is part of a harmonious and thriving democracy. Interesting too that some of the most oppressive "islamic" countries have a decidedly un-islamic ruling regime who rigorously oppress their muslim population.

[Political Interest]

How can there be no Christians left in Gaza? If Hamas went to them with the barrel of the gun, would they not respond with their own militancy?

[Swinger7714]

Christianity and Judaism are inherently hostile towards oppression, in a way that Islam isnt.

If this is true than how can you explain France before the revolution? How can you explain the witch hunt? Spanish inquisition? All the horrors of the dark ages were justified as the will of god under Christian rule.

It's not the religion itself to blame, but the leaders that interpret it in a way that will benefit their own selfish desires.

[Kman]

Funny then how the largest muslim country in the world is a successful democracy, while the largest muslim population in any one country (India) is part of a harmonious and thriving democracy.

Yeah right, it was a dictatorship as recently as 1998 and even after it turned democratic it still has had severe problems with respecting individual liberties as seen in the conflict in the Aceh region and its oppression of minorities.

Even the so called Islamic Democracies do not respect concepts like freedom of speech and without that you are not a real democracy.

Interesting too that some of the most oppressive "islamic" countries have a decidedly un-islamic ruling regime who rigorously oppress their muslim population.

And the reason why so many tyrants rule in Islamic countries is because Islam teaches people that fighting another muslim is wrong, and well you need to fight to get rid of a dictator.

If this is true than how can you explain France before the revolution? How can you explain the witch hunt? Spanish inquisition? All the horrors of the dark ages were justified as the will of god under Christian rule.

And still those practices was disbanded after a while, the good guys won in the west, while they lost in the middle east.

It's not the religion itself to blame, but the leaders that interpret it in a way that will benefit their own selfish desires.

If the religion teaches you to be submissive and not be critical of your leaders then it is the religion that is to blame for tyranny ruling.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Yeah right, it was a dictatorship as recently as 1998 and even after it turned democratic it still has had severe problems with respecting individual liberties as seen in the conflict in the Aceh region and its oppression of minorities.

This is just hilarious - if they had a competition for the best defeater of ones own argument, you would be the gold medalist. I mean what happened in 1998? The Indonesian muslims did exactly what you claim is impossible in muslim countries - they rose up en-masse and overthrew the dictatorship. And your mention of Aceh is farcical - what did they do? The Acehnese waged a 29 year separatist war, and eventually won virtual autonomy in 2005 and now pretty much run their own islamic state. Muslims never fight oppression right? And its not as if its the only place - in fact I can list islamic separatist movements all over the world without even thinking - Chechnya, Hamas (against the ruling Fatah), chinese Uighers, muslims in Thailand etc etc etc. Your line is so farcical considering that most bigots at your level would complain about the level of instability (terrorism) created by islamic separatists, not the other way around.

But then again, this is coming from someone who claims that jews are called "apes" and "pigs" in the Quran.

[Kman]

Gandalf what does it matter that they overthrow a dictator if they replace it with an equally oppressive democratic government? Then its not much of an improvement.

I also didnt claim that muslims overthrowing their leaders was an impossibility, I said in most cases the muslim populations do not fight tyranny, and if they fight it and overthrow it, they replace it with something just as bad as seen in the case of Iran.

But then again, this is coming from someone who claims that jews are called "apes" and "pigs" in the Quran.

Sura 7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, "Become apes—despised and disgraced!"

Sura 2:65 And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: "Be apes—despised and hated by all." 66 Thus We made their end a warning to the people of their time and succeeding generation, and an admonition for God-fearing people.

Sura 5:60 Then say: "Should I inform you [People of the Book] of those, who will have even worse recompense from Allah than the transgressors? They are those whom Allah has cursed; who have been under His wrath; some of whom were turned into apes and swine; who worshipped taghut [the devil or idols]; those are the people who are in a far worse plight and who have turned farthest away from the Right Way."

If you want the full story about the context within which they where said read http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... w_apes.htm

[GandalfTheGrey]

I also didnt claim that muslims overthrowing their leaders was an impossibility, I said in most cases the muslim populations do not fight tyranny

And I'm telling you thats completely incorrect- laughably so. Muslims fight oppression everywhere - the countries I listed in my previous post is just a tiny sample

If you want the full story about the context within which they where said read

No thanks, I'd rather read the proper non-bigoted version. Basically what answering-islam and people who cite it are too stupid to understand is that it refers to a particular time when a few jews were turned into apes because they were transgressors - not as you claim, that all jews are referred to as apes.

[Kman]

And I'm telling you thats completely incorrect- laughably so. Muslims fight oppression everywhere - the countries I listed in my previous post is just a tiny sample

I doubt that since none of the Muslim countries are anywhere as free as the countries in western europe and the US is. If you really do fight oppression why are your governments and leaders oppressing you so much? Clearly they are getting away with it.

No thanks, I'd rather read the proper non-bigoted version. Basically what answering-islam and people who cite it are too stupid to understand is that it refers to a particular time when a few jews were turned into apes because they were transgressors - not as you claim, that all jews are referred to as apes.

So you admit I was right in my claim ?

[GandalfTheGrey]

I doubt that since none of the Muslim countries are anywhere as free as the countries in western europe and the US is.

You "doubt" the existence of separatist movements like the Uighers and Chechens? The issue of whether or not the resistance replaces one oppressive regime with another is completely irrelevant - the fact is that there are countless examples all around the world to demonstrate the fact that muslims fight oppression.

So you admit I was right in my claim ?

What?

they [jews] are called apes and pigs in the Koran

The Quran relates a specific incident in which some jews were turned into apes because they were transgressors. At that point they were no longer jews (or human), and consequently stopped being identified as such. Do you understand the difference? Jews are not called apes or pigs - apes are called apes. Jews are called jews.

[Kman]

You "doubt" the existence of separatist movements like the Uighers and Chechens? The issue of whether or not the resistance replaces one oppressive regime with another is completely irrelevant - the fact is that there are countless examples all around the world to demonstrate the fact that muslims fight oppression.

The difference is they are not fighting for freedom, they are fighting to replace one kind of oppression with another (Islamic oppression).
And that is not irrelevant because it shows the inherent hostility to freedom that is within Islam.

The day that an Islamic majority nation becomes truely free and starts respecting concepts like freedom of speech (like it is in the US) is the day I will eat my tough leather work shoes.

[GandalfTheGrey]

The difference is they are not fighting for freedom, they are fighting to replace one kind of oppression with another (Islamic oppression)

Separatist movements are by their very nature oppressive against their own followers - they have to be to maintain unity and focus on their cause. It is the case for just about all separatist movements - not just islamic ones. The issue of individual rights and freedoms is overwhelmingly determined by the per-capita economic prosperity of the society. In general, rich western countries have more individual freedoms and rights than poorer non-western countries. Unfortunately, most islamic countries fall in the less developed - less rich category. Of course you might point to this and say islam itself is responsible for muslim countries being poor, but my point is, there is a very strong correlation between ALL poor countries and poor individual rights and freedoms - not just islamic ones. So oppression of individual freedom is by no means unique only to islamic countries

[Political Interest]

Kman, was it the Muslims who were fascistic? Did they set up fascist states like we found in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s? You may claim that there is dictatorship in Muslim countries, but these dictators are not Islamic! These regimes are not Islamic! Yes, the Iranian government may call itself an "Islamic Republic", but it is not. Then we find in Iraq we had the Ba'athist regime, the same party that currently rules Syria today. The Ba'athists are an Arab fascist party. They are not Islamic. They were inspired by European state fascism and economic socialism. Their ideological father was Michael Aflaq, a Christian. Saudi Arabia are not an Islamic state either.

It was Umar Al Mukhtur, the Libyan Mujahid who fought the fascist Italians during the Second World War!

Here he was not long before he was hanged:



Here we have the film:
[youtube]Vy0ReNSffjA[/youtube]

[danholo]

Of course you might point to this and say islam itself is responsible for muslim countries being poor, but my point is, there is a very strong correlation between ALL poor countries and poor individual rights and freedoms - not just islamic ones. So oppression of individual freedom is by no means unique only to islamic countries.

I think Islam does play a part in the "backwardness" of Muslim countries. It works exactly like the Church did for the West in Medieval times. Unlike some "third world countries" which have a capacity for progress, like China and India, the Muslim world, as I see it, doesn't seem to have even a speck of advancement which we consider progress in the West. Unless some form of educational base is incepted in that part of the world, and also values of placing importance on knowledge, it will take a long, long time until the Muslim world changes. Their attitude plays a significant part in this situation, and I think you are not even adding it into the equation.

[clanko]

which we consider progress in the West.

Is Israel in the west?

Unlike some "third world countries" which have a capacity for progress, like China and India,

For starters, China and India becoming advanced industrial societies are relatively recent developments - the processes of democratisation which most often accompany these changes almost always result in a 'culture shift'.

Take Africa - predominantly Christian, predominantly poor...ravaged by a near-complete lack of strong human rights and plagued with war. What do we blame?

[Kman]

Take Africa - predominantly Christian, predominantly poor...ravaged by a near-complete lack of strong human rights and plagued with war. What do we blame?

Africans, Christianity is not a golden ticket to wealth and prosperity, you need to work hard to get there.

[clanko]

I think the African continents knows a fair whack more than you could conceive of when it comes to hard labour. Perhaps if they could keep the fruits of their labour, christianity aside, they might be in better shape.