[Huntster]

Quote:
Actually, the total surrender was to the Allies, including the Soviet Union

To the exclusion of the USSR. The fact that a few German divisions here and there surrendered is different from the German General Staffs and Hitler's successor is pretty blatant.

Disregarding all the divisional surrenders throughout the theater:

Jodl and Keitel surrender all German armed forces unconditionally: One half hour after the fall of "Fortress Breslau" (Festung Breslau), General Alfred Jodl arrived in Rheims and, following Dönitz's instructions, offered to surrender all forces fighting the Western Allies. This was exactly the same negotiating position that von Friedeburg had initially made to Montgomery, and like Montgomery the Supreme Allied Commander, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, threatened to break off all negotiations unless the Germans agreed to a complete unconditional surrender. Eisenhower explicitly told Jodl that he would order western lines closed to German soldiers, thus forcing them to surrender to the Soviets. Jodl sent a signal to Dönitz, who was in Flensburg, informing him of Eisenhower's position. Shortly after midnight Dönitz, accepting the inevitable, sent a signal to Jodl authorizing the complete and total surrender of all German forces.
At 02:41 on the morning of, May 7, 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Rheims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, General Alfred Jodl, signed the unconditional surrender documents for all German forces to the Allies. General Franz Böhme announced the unconditional surrender of German troops in Norway on May 7, the same day as Jodl signed the unconditional surrender document. It included the phrase "All forces under German control to cease active operations at 2301 hours Central European Time on May 8, 1945." The next day, General Wilhelm Keitel and other German OKW representatives traveled to Berlin, and shortly before midnight signed a similar document, explicitly surrendering to Soviet forces, in the presence of General Georgi Zhukov. The signing ceremony took place in a former German Army Engineering School in the Berlin district (not suburb) of Karlshorst which now houses the German-Russian Museum Berlin-Karlshorst .

Yet again, you are explicitly wrong.

And, yet again, you will never admit it. I fully expect a long, diversionary ride through derail land while you desperately seek something with which to try to save face.

Quote:
Actually, they were occupied by the Soviets; in East Berlin and East Germany

That's because Truman broke the Potsdam agreement.

What did Truman violate in the agreement that "allowed" the Soviet occupation of lands that they had taken back from Germany?

[redcarpet]

offered to surrender all forces fighting the Western Allies

The USSR has never been considered a Western power. You know that as well as us. Highlighting this line only discredits your claim

Eisenhower explicitly told Jodl that he would order western lines closed to German soldiers, thus forcing them to surrender to the Soviets

Yes, because they didn't want to surrender to the USSR.

What did Truman violate in the agreement that "allowed" the Soviet occupation of lands that they had taken back from Germany?

Wow, boys we have someone here who doesn't know how the Cold War started!

[Huntster]

offered to surrender all forces fighting the Western Allies

The USSR has never been considered a Western power. You know that as well as us. Highlighting this line only discredits your claim

Like I wrote:

Yet again, you are explicitly wrong.

And, yet again, you will never admit it. I fully expect a long, diversionary ride through derail land while you desperately seek something with which to try to save face.

You are clearly playing a "focus on nothing" game in an attempt to flee from your hasty and foolish posts.

I'll repeat the "highlighted" claim (in context), which you will promptly ignore or avoid:

General Alfred Jodl arrived in Rheims and, following Dönitz's instructions, offered to surrender all forces fighting the Western Allies.This was exactly the same negotiating position that von Friedeburg had initially made to Montgomery, and like Montgomery the Supreme Allied Commander, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, threatened to break off all negotiations unless the Germans agreed to a complete unconditional surrender. Eisenhower explicitly told Jodl that he would order western lines closed to German soldiers, thus forcing them to surrender to the Soviets. Jodl sent a signal to Dönitz, who was in Flensburg, informing him of Eisenhower's position. Shortly after midnight Dönitz, accepting the inevitable, sent a signal to Jodl authorizing the complete and total surrender of all German forces...........

...........The next day, General Wilhelm Keitel and other German OKW representatives traveled to Berlin, and shortly before midnight signed a similar document, explicitly surrendering to Soviet forces, in the presence of General Georgi Zhukov.

Yet again, you are explicitly wrong.

And, yet again, you will never admit it. I fully expect a long, diversionary ride through derail land while you desperately seek something with which to try to save face.

Quote:
Eisenhower explicitly told Jodl that he would order western lines closed to German soldiers, thus forcing them to surrender to the Soviets

Yes, because they didn't want to surrender to the USSR.

And Eisenhower forced them to do so.

Quote:
[b]What did Truman violate in the agreement that "allowed" the Soviet occupation of lands that they had taken back from Germany?[/b]

Wow, boys we have someone here who doesn't know how the Cold War started!

Okay, boy; please answer the question which was spurred by your claim:

What did Truman violate in the agreement that "allowed" the Soviet occupation of lands that they had taken back from Germany?

[redcarpet]

You are clearly playing a "focus on nothing" game

Motives drive policy. To say the motives of the last acts of German generals in the last days of WW2 is an extraordinary dismissal. I call on you to apologise to the victims of WW2 immediately.

Okay, boy; please answer the question

Not in this thread, if you insist on revisiting a major historical event which surely was touched on at your school in History class. Start a new one if you want me to talk about it.

[Huntster]

Quote:
You are clearly playing a "focus on nothing" game

Motives drive policy. To say the motives of the last acts of German generals in the last days of WW2 is an extraordinary dismissal. I call on you to apologise to the victims of WW2 immediately.

Is this a joke, or are you on medications or something?

Quote:
Okay, boy; please answer the question

Not in this thread, if you insist on revisiting a major historical event which surely was touched on at your school in History class. Start a new one if you want me to talk about it.

What a fucking coward. You just can't face the fact that you fucked up talking out your ass and got caught, can you?

[RonPaulalways]

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane. ... endocument

UN Fact Finding Mission finds strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict; calls for end to impunity

[danholo]

It says that it "might've" done it. It doesn't say it did.

Danholo, I thought you were going to embrace the Goldstone report. I am so surprised you have come out against it.

You must be the only one then... I don't embrace it as it's not even good enough as toilet paper. Too coarse. Then again, to get the truth alight, maybe it is a good thing. Honestly, this program aired in Turkey is so way over board with just everything that is wrong with people that something must be done.

[RonPaulalways]

My comment went right over your head there Danholo.

Any way, I think the report is probably referring to war crimes like this:

Doctors at a hospital near Gaza are almost overwhelmed by the number of Palestinian children needing treatment for bullet wounds to their heads.

"I can't precisely decide whether these children are being shot at as a target, but in some cases the bullet comes from the front of the head and goes towards the back, so I think the gun has been directly pointed at the child."

[Swinger7714]

"I can't precisely decide whether these children are being shot at as a target, but in some cases the bullet comes from the front of the head and goes towards the back, so I think the gun has been directly pointed at the child."

There is no way to determine who shot those kids. All I know is that the IDF has strict rules against harming unarmed civilians, and Hamas does not.

[RonPaulalways]

There is a lot indoctrination in the IDF that makes them prone to cruelty towards the Palestinians.

http://www.shtull-trauring.org/aron/Com ... _face.html

‘I punched an Arab in the face’

Staff Sergeant (res.) Liran Ron Furer cannot just routinely get on with his life anymore. He is haunted by images from his three years of military service in Gaza and the thought that this could be a syndrome afflicting everyone who serves at checkpoints gives him no respite. On the verge of completing his studies in the design program at the Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, he decided to drop everything and devote all his time to the book he wanted to write. The major publishers he brought it to declined to publish it. The publisher that finally accepted it (Gevanim) says that the Steimatzky bookstore chain refuses to distribute it. But Furer is determined to bring his book to the public’s attention.

“You can adopt the most hard-line political positions, but no parent would agree to his son becoming a thief, a criminal or a violent person,” says Furer. “The problem is that it’s never presented this way. The boy himself doesn’t portray himself this way to his family when he returns from the territories. On the contrary – he is received as a hero, as someone who is doing the important work of being a soldier. No one can be indifferent to the fact that there are many families in which, in a certain sense, there are already two generations of criminals. The father went through it and now the son is going through it and no one talks about it around the dinner table.”

Furer is certain that what happened to him is not at all unique. Here he was – a creative, sensitive graduate of the Thelma Yellin High School of the Arts, who became an animal at the checkpoint, a violent sadist who beat up Palestinians because they didn’t show him the proper courtesy, who shot out tires of cars because their owners were playing the radio too loud, who abused a retarded teenage boy lying handcuffed on the floor of the Jeep, just because he had to take his anger out somehow. “Checkpoint Syndrome” (also the title of his book), gradually transforms every soldier into an animal, he maintains, regardless of whatever values he brings with him from home. No one can escape its taint. In a place where nearly everything is permissible and violence is perceived as normative behavior, each soldier tests his own limits of violence impulsiveness on his victims – the Palestinians.

[Sayed Zakerya]

Zionists are trying to diffuse the Goldstone report from its clear condemnation of IDF brutality & barbaric practises. Thier trials include laying doubts over the commision persons neutrality / proffesionalism or questioning the validity of some of the report events. They forget that Goldstone reprot is not the only record of IDF crimes. Israeli humanitarian groups have prepared thier reports that record the barabaric crimes during Gaza War

The extent of the harm to the civilian population in the Gaza Strip during Operation Cast lead is unprecedented. Only now is the full magnitude of the destruction coming to light and additional testimonies about what happened continue to surface. Whole families have been wiped out. Children were killed before their parents’ eyes. Some people watched as their loved ones bled to death. Clearly, even after the dead are buried and the rubble has been cleared away, the residents of the Gaza Strip will carry scars from this operation for a long time to come.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Index.asp
Those who are justifying & defending IDF practises during Gaza War should be ashamed of themselves. IDF War criminals will be chased & will never be spared.

[Dempsey]

Sayed Zakerya

They forget that Goldstone reprot is not the only record of IDF crimes. Israeli humanitarian groups have prepared thier reports that record the barabaric crimes during Gaza War

Beautiful. Do you have Human rights group in Egypt?

[Sayed Zakerya]

Beautiful. Do you have Human rights group in Egypt?

Of corse, Dempsy. We have very active human rights groups in Egypt. I would provide you with addresses if you insist. Go back to the thread subject ,Dempsey. Explain us the reasons that are justifying your defense of children killers, collective murder & war criminals ?

[Dempsey]

Great. Do your Human Rights group defend Jewish rights as well?

[Swinger7714]

There are tones of this crap on the internet. Fact is that the IDF recruits its soldiers at the age of 18, not 0, and if it recruits an asshole violent person, than guess what? He is gonna be an asshole violent soldier(And yes I even had a couple of these assholes in my unit, no one liked them.). But don’t preach me that the IDF is some how brain washing soldiers to be violent and heartless bullies, I served 4 years in the IDF and I know it's not true.

Please read about Ruach Tzahal:

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/d ... ethics.htm

The IDF Spirit

The Israel Defense Forces are the state of Israel's military force. The IDF is subordinate to the directions of the democratic civilian authorities and the laws of the state. The goal of the IDF is to protect the existence of the State of Israel and her independence, and to thwart all enemy efforts to disrupt the normal way of life in Israel. IDF soldiers are obligated to fight, to dedicate all their strength and even sacrifice their lives in order to protect the State of Israel, her citizens and residents. IDF soldiers will operate according to the IDF values and orders, while adhering to the laws of the state and norms of human dignity, and honoring the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

Spirit of the IDF-Definition and Origins

The Spirit of the IDF is the identity card of the IDF values, which should stand as the foundation of all of the activities of every IDF soldier, on regular or reserve duty. The Spirit of the IDF and the guidelines of operation resulting from it are the ethical code of the IDF. The Spirit of the IDF will be applied by the IDF, its soldiers, its officers, its units and corps to shape their mode of action. They will behave, educate and evaluate themselves and others according to the Spirit of the IDF.


The Spirit of the IDF draws on four sources:

* The tradition of the IDF and its military heritage as the Israel Defense Forces.
* The tradition of the State of Israel, its democratic principles, laws and institutions.
* The tradition of the Jewish People throughout their history.
* Universal moral values based on the value and dignity of human life.


Basic Values:

Defense of the State, its Citizens and its Residents - The IDF's goal is to defend the existence of the State of Israel, its independence and the security of the citizens and residents of the state.

Love of the Homeland and Loyalty to the Country - At the core of service in the IDF stand the love of the homeland and the commitment and devotion to the State of Israel-a democratic state that serves as a national home for the Jewish People-its citizens and residents.

Human Dignity - The IDF and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position.


The Values:

Tenacity of Purpose in Performing Missions and Drive to Victory - The IDF servicemen and women will fight and conduct themselves with courage in the face of all dangers and obstacles; They will persevere in their missions resolutely and thoughtfully even to the point of endangering their lives.

Responsibility - The IDF serviceman or woman will see themselves as active participants in the defense of the state, its citizens and residents. They will carry out their duties at all times with initiative, involvement and diligence with common sense and within the framework of their authority, while prepared to bear responsibility for their conduct.

Credibility - The IDF servicemen and women shall present things objectively, completely and precisely, in planning, performing and reporting. They will act in such a manner that their peers and commanders can rely upon them in performing their tasks.

Personal Example - The IDF servicemen and women will comport themselves as required of them, and will demand of themselves as they demand of others, out of recognition of their ability and responsibility within the military and without to serve as a deserving role model.

Human Life - The IDF servicemen and women will act in a judicious and safe manner in all they do, out of recognition of the supreme value of human life. During combat they will endanger themselves and their comrades only to the extent required to carry out their mission.

Purity of Arms - The IDF servicemen and women will use their weapons and force only for the purpose of their mission, only to the necessary extent and will maintain their humanity even during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war, and will do all in their power to avoid causing harm to their lives, bodies, dignity and property.

Professionalism - The IDF servicemen and women will acquire the professional knowledge and skills required to perform their tasks, and will implement them while striving continuously to perfect their personal and collective achievements.

Discipline - The IDF servicemen and women will strive to the best of their ability to fully and successfully complete all that is required of them according to orders and their spirit. IDF soldiers will be meticulous in giving only lawful orders, and shall refrain from obeying blatantly illegal orders.

Comradeship - The IDF servicemen and women will act out of fraternity and devotion to their comrades, and will always go to their assistance when they need their help or depend on them, despite any danger or difficulty, even to the point of risking their lives.

Sense of Mission - The IDF soldiers view their service in the IDF as a mission; They will be ready to give their all in order to defend the state, its citizens and residents. This is due to the fact that they are representatives of the IDF who act on the basis and in the framework of the authority given to them in accordance with IDF orders.

[War Angel]

Do you have Human rights group in Egypt?

Mostly under ground. I mean, literally, covered in dirt.

[Dempsey]

^They can be underground or legal but is their any case of Arabs protesting against the violation of the Jewish human rights? It's very easy to beat your enemy chest, what about self-criticism?

[RonPaulalways]

But don’t preach me that the IDF is some how brain washing soldiers to be violent and heartless bullies, I served 4 years in the IDF and I know it's not true.

And I'm gonna take your word for it why? It's not due to official IDF policy that its soldiers become violent, but due to the nature of occupation and the power it gives the occupier over the occupied.

It's very easy to beat your enemy chest, what about self-criticism?

Israeli lobby groups like AIPAC should take your advice rather than reflexively denouncing any report that's critical of Israel.

[Dempsey]

Israeli lobby groups like AIPAC should take your advice rather than reflexively denouncing any report that's critical of Israel.

AIPAC is lobby group

[Swinger7714]

And I'm gonna take your word for it why? It's not due to official IDF policy that its soldiers become violent, but due to the nature of occupation and the power it gives the occupier over the occupied.

I can agree with this.

The nature of the occupation is the nature of a burden. Like when you are forced to do something that you really don't want to do, so you do it in the crappiest way possible. The occupation is really no ones interest (maybe except the settlers'). Reminds me one time when I and some kids had a fight in high school and as a punishment we were told to repaint the entire fence around the school. Of course we felt that this was forced on us, so we did it in the sloppiest way, just to get the job done. The same way the occupation looks like after so many years.