[Zamuel]

Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur.

No it's not. Anyone who claims that jews have no right to a state of their own is an anti-semite, because his way would lead jews back to being an oppressed minority in other countries. - Arabs have been manufacturing for decades - under the wide shut eyes of the international community, and with the complicity and backing of the UN - a people whose sole purpose and raison d'etre is the destruction of the jewish state.

All true, Palestinian leadership has repeatedly stated that they thirst for the blood of the Jews and will not stop until they have spilled the last drop of it. Their Arabian allies have all parroted that agenda. Anyone supporting THAT, no matter how they sugar coat their justifications, is Anti-Semitic.

Zam

[Pisa]

All true, Palestinian leadership has repeatedly stated that they thirst for the blood of the Jews and will not stop until they have spilled the last drop of it.
Zam

Sadly, the palestinian leadership is not the only factor involved in stepping up hatred against jews. The role UNRWA is playing might influence the future palestinian generations even more than official propaganda.

Also, let's not forget the EU's funding of palestinian schoolbooks, in which such pearls of white-peace-dove-driven wisdom can be found:

"Palestine’s war ended with a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history, when the Zionist gangs stole Palestine … and established the so-called State of Israel."
[Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p. 104]

Note the map in the same article, courtesy of our moderate peace partners in the PA.

But the maps in israeli schoolbooks...

[Heinie]

Heinie wrote:
Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur.
Pisa wrote:
No it's not. Anyone who claims that jews have no right to a state of their own is an anti-semite, because his way would lead jews back to being an oppressed minority in other countries. - Arabs have been manufacturing for decades - under the wide shut eyes of the international community, and with the complicity and backing of the UN - a people whose sole purpose and raison d'etre is the destruction of the jewish state.

All true, Palestinian leadership has repeatedly stated that they thirst for the blood of the Jews and will not stop until they have spilled the last drop of it. Their Arabian allies have all parroted that agenda. Anyone supporting THAT, no matter how they sugar coat their justifications, is Anti-Semitic.

The only true part is what I wrote. If some Jews wanted to have their own state, it was wrong to make one by stealing Palestinian land, displacing the indigenous people and rendering the rest second-class citizens. At its root, Israel is an illegitimate state. The Israelis know this and they also fear that they are on borrowed time. Despite this, there might have been some chance that Israel could have been accepted as a country since it had a powerful friend in the USA, for some reason, and some European countries such as England (Balfour Declaration), Germany (Final Solution), France (Nazi collaborators), and others who rounded-up Jews by the trainload. Israel even got membership of the United Nations. But the Israelis' persistent belligerency with its neighboring countries and its half-century long brutal occupation of its de facto extended borders has led fair-minded observers to come down on the side of justice and against Zionism. Whatever good will the Zionists mustered in the middle of the last century was frittered away by their actions into the current one.

[wat0n]

Fair minded observers like whom, exactly? You? Don't make me laugh.

None of the things you describe makes Israel a particularly unique case, even assuming they were true (and they aren't), and most certainly no one questions the legitimacy of those other States.

[Pongo]

Sadly, the palestinian leadership is not the only factor involved in stepping up hatred against jews. The role UNRWA is playing might influence the future palestinian generations even more than official propaganda.

Also, let's not forget the EU's funding of palestinian schoolbooks, in which such pearls of white-peace-dove-driven wisdom can be found:

That's why the Israelis believe that Karma finally strikes Europe. Europe was the main non Arab player the forested the Palestinian problem, which brought much pain and blood on both sides, now they have Palestinian problem of their own. Enjoy!

[layman]

it was wrong to make one by stealing Palestinian land, displacing the indigenous people and rendering the rest second-class citizens. At its root, Israel is an illegitimate state.

Here you have it folks. Israel is illegitimate and should not exist. Anti-zionism has this logical conclusion - the end of israel.

Look this is fine but dont expect israel to take this threat to them and their existence lightly - they dont and quite understandably. Underneath the anti-violence and bleeding-heartism is actually a belief system that will end up with lots of dead and displaced jews.

Look at what happened to the other non-muslims in the middle east. They are being erased.

[Pisa]

If some Jews wanted to have their own state, it was wrong to make one by stealing Palestinian land, displacing the indigenous people and rendering the rest second-class citizens.

If some arabs in Palestine wanted to have their own state, it was wrong to wait with the ownership claim through centuries of ottoman reign up until the moment some jews wanted to have their own state.

Jews did not steal palestinian land, this is just another libel in the long list of wrongdoings and nefarious deeds attributed to jews throughout history. The land of Palestine did not belong to an arab palestinian people. However, since you seem so sure it did, and the jews stole it, the burden of proof is on you. Well?

Despite this, there might have been some chance that Israel could have been accepted as a country since it had a powerful friend in the USA, for some reason, and some European countries such as England (Balfour Declaration), Germany (Final Solution), France (Nazi collaborators), and others who rounded-up Jews by the trainload.

The first country that has wholeheartedly supported the young state of Israel has been USSR. Another has been Czechoslovakia.

Declaring all british individuals co-authors of the Balfour Declaration, all germans blood thirsty nazis, all french nazi collaborators, is not going to make your point look..err...pointier.

Israel even got membership of the United Nations. But the Israelis' persistent belligerency with its neighboring countries and its half-century long brutal occupation of its de facto extended borders has led fair-minded observers to come down on the side of justice and against Zionism. Whatever good will the Zionists mustered in the middle of the last century was frittered away by their actions into the current one.

Um, no.

The fair-minded observers have been greatly influenced by a simple act of blackmail: the embargo imposed on oil exports by the arab states in the 70s. The most affected country - The Netherlands - is until today one of the main sponsors of anti-Israel NGOs.

That's why the Israelis believe that Karma finally strikes Europe. Europe was the main non Arab player the forested the Palestinian problem, which brought much pain and blood on both sides, now they have Palestinian problem of their own. Enjoy!

Not quite, actually. The downfall of the european civilization would be a disaster for Israel.

[Pongo]

Not quite, actually. The downfall of the european civilization would be a disaster for Israel.

Very few would agree with you. They believe it won't change much for Israel. Islamisized Europe will not be worse than current antisemitic and anti Zionist Europe.

[layman]

Very few would agree with you. They believe it won't change much for Israel. Islamisized Europe will not be worse than current antisemitic and anti Zionist Europe.

A European country like the UK, france or germany would make mince meat out of you.

[Pongo]

A European country like the UK, france or germany would make mince meat out of you.

What do you mean?

[Rich]

There is an antisemitism problem behind opposition to Israel, including on a portion of the Left of late http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and-left.

Only a willful dupe or brazen liar would pretend otherwise.

When it comes to wilful dupes or brazen liar your above link takes the biscuit.

The way in which anti-semitism is distinguished, and should be distinguished, from racism, has to do with the sort of imaginary of power, attributed to the Jews, Zionism, and Israel, which is at the heart of anti-semitism. The Jews are seen as constituting an immensely powerful, abstract, intangible global form of power that dominates the world. There is nothing similar to this idea at the heart of other forms of racism.

I was browsing some Nazi website when I came across this:

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. It read:

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1][2]

The text of the letter was published in the press one week later, on 9 November 1917.[3] The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into both the Sèvres peace treaty with the Ottoman Empire, and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library.

Of course its just the normal absurd"antisemitic" conspiracy theory nonsense. The idea that in the middle of total war that a member of the British government would write to a banker, note a banker not a politician, with something guaranteed to inflame the Muslim inhabitants of the Ottoman empire with which we were at war. not to mention inflaming the vast multitude of Muslims inside the British and French empires just defies credulity.

But then to my horror I realised that it wasn't a Nazi website I was reading at all, but Wikipedia. This was history. Zionist Jews did hold enormous power. You can argue about why they held such power, but that they held such power is undeniable.

So what of the Nazis and all the other Weimar German Jew haters? The problem with their argument was they tired to link in Zionists with "Judo-Bolshevism". If there was one group of people who had no right to whine about so called "Judo Bolshevism" it was German militarists. Without the Russian revolution Germany would have lost and lost sooner. And without the Russian revolution the Zionist cause would have been stronger, Muslim power would have been emasculated far more devastatingly by an Anglo/ French /Russian Greek / Italian victory than one without Russia and where the allies were dependant on the United States to deliver victory. So yes Zionist Jews did and do wield immense power, the mistake is those that try and combine this into some over arching conspiracy theory including Communist Jews, Jewish Physicists, Jewish Psychologists and Jewish media and cultural thought leaders.

Those that deny the power of Jewish Zionists feed and must share part responsibility for these deluded all encompassing conspiracy theories.

[Pongo]

But then to my horror I realised that it wasn't a Nazi website I was reading at all, but Wikipedia. This was history. Zionist Jews did hold enormous power. You can argue about why they held such power, but that they held such power is undeniable.

The Zionists Jews had no power whatsoever. It was a mirage that the antisemites believed and the Zionists took advantage on this image. The Zionists were isolated group (mainly Jewish students from German universities, and that's all). All the established forces of the Jewish world tried to dissociated with them. It looked too radical and unrealistic. The British officialdom mistook the recent Bolshevik revolution and Young Turks with Zionism. But they were all separated causes albeit with crucial Jewish participation. The Balfour Declaration was granted on this false image. Antisemitism can also work for Jewish benefit as well.

[Zamuel]

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. It read:

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The text of the letter was published in the press one week later, on 9 November 1917.[3] The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into both the Sèvres peace treaty with the Ottoman Empire, and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library.

Wow ...! This discovery is just awesome ... Who knew ! Israel didn't just crawl out from under a cabbage leaf !

Those that deny the power of Jewish Zionists feed and must share part responsibility for these deluded all encompassing conspiracy theories.

So ? Once we've dealt with the Jews, we do the English next ?

Zam

[Pisa]

But then to my horror I realised that it wasn't a Nazi website I was reading at all, but Wikipedia. This was history. Zionist Jews did hold enormous power. You can argue about why they held such power, but that they held such power is undeniable.

Let's move on to my horror, when I realised that castrating history breeds anti-semitic comments.

The distinguished government of her british majesty has, during WWI, made promises to muslim arabs to motivate them to fight against the ottomans. British promises and efforts lead to the establishment of two brand new arab muslim states in the ME - Iraq and Jordan. With Lebanon and Syria, that makes 4 states for arabs in the ME after WWI, plus the british engineered newly-born Pakistan. Versus one jewish national home.

This is history. Muslims - mostly arabs - did hold enormous power. You can argue about why they held scuh power, but that they held such power is undeniable.

Edit: well, 5 brand new arab states, with Saudi Arabia. 6 new muslim states, but the jews...

[Rich]

The distinguished government of her british majesty has, during WWI, made promises to muslim arabs to motivate them to fight against the ottomans. British promises and efforts lead to the establishment of two brand new arab muslim states in the ME - Iraq and Jordan. With Lebanon and Syria, that makes 4 states for arabs in the ME after WWI, plus the british engineered newly-born Pakistan. Versus one jewish national home.

This is history. Muslims - mostly arabs - did hold enormous power. You can argue about why they held scuh power, but that they held such power is undeniable.

Edit: well, 5 brand new arab states, with Saudi Arabia. 6 new muslim states, but the jews...

The Arabs were promised states in order to get them to revolt, as they made up a huge percentage of the Ottoman Empire's population while Jews were a tiny fraction too dispersed too isolated to be able to organise revolt. Plus as already stated the Balfour declaration was likely to incense the hundreds of millions of Muslims on both sides of the war. But of course you know this. This is just deflecting by

We again see the incredible power of Zionists when it came to the partition plan. That they were able to force it though the UN, even President Truman felt powerless to resist. Or in the blatant murder of thirty four Americans on the USS liberty. Do you think anyone else could have got away with such an open cynical atrocity? just recently we have the Israeli defence minister saying, he'd rather see ISIS win. Even Turkey doesn't openly admit to preferring an ISIS victory.

Power is power

Its true that a significant part of Zionist power in the United States is due to Christian apocalyptic fundamentalism. Hence Zionism hold in Europe is much less secure. But so what power is always mediated. Its still power none the less.

I have no problem with Israel in itself. Not only do I support Israel's 67 borders. I recognise its capital as Jerusalem. And I will happily support it annexing more land South, East and North. But I do have a problem with this distortion of our foreign policy to follow Israel's anti Shia obsession. An understandable obsession, but not our obsession. Their interest not our interest. Our interest is in destroying the primary centres for terrorism in the world today: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. With the price of oil where it is, now is the ideal time to attack and break apart Saudi Arabia.

[Pongo]

Rich, your take is serious but the problem with Israel is that they always turn to be right. That's why they seem to get away with many problematic cases. If Israel thinks that Iran is much more dangerous than some head choppers than it's probably right. Israel has much greater perspective. Naturally, the media is fascinated by ISIS actions but for Muslims is nothing special.

[Heinie]

Rich, your take is serious but the problem with Israel is that they always turn to be right. That's why they seem to get away with many problematic cases. If Israel thinks that Iran is much more dangerous than some head choppers than it's probably right. Israel has much greater perspective.

Not so; the Israelis have powerful supporters, in particular the Americans.

[Pongo]

Yes. Israel has powerful supporters in America because they know how serious Israel is.

[redcarpet]

Rich, were you accepting or rejecting what I cited?

[Rich]

Rich, were you accepting or rejecting what I cited?

I prefer to go point by point. Even if I disagree with everything, blanket dismissal does not serve intellectual inquiry. I have been considering the nature of radical left opposition to Israel, but need a little more time to be really clear how I want to express my view.