I see. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Moderator: PoFo Middle-East Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
By Ásatrúar
#47879
Manstein wrote:Zionism is the ideal for the establishing and the protection of a Jewish State in the chosen land. Zionism has nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy.


Who deems it "chosen." The hebrew god? No, establishment of states doesn't and shouldn't work like that. Someone of a different faith will not accept the claim.
User avatar
By Zanzibar
#48333
Oh yah, because Isreal so isn't America's lap dog. :lol:

Marxism should support not religion or nationality. It's a class struggle mate.
By Cap
#48462
Zanzibar wrote:Marxism should support not religion or nationality. It's a class struggle mate.



And the Palestinians are being oppressed, not the Jews.


Cap 8)
By Nucleicacidman
#49050
No kidding the Palestinians are being oppressed. They blow up bombs in the streets of Jerusalem dammit! How is Israel supposed to help them if they kill those who attempt such a thing?? The Palestinians are not oppressed by the Israelis directly, they are oppressed by the veils provided by their own religious fanatics!

Israel is not America's lap dog! In fact Israel has gone contrary to the Americans in many circumstances, namely the Six Day War and the attack into Lebanon as well as the recent strikes into Palestinian camps. Please do not post random comments without a single string of evidence or you will just prove your incompetence at debate.

I'm not trying to promost Zionism. I don't believe in any religion. I believe that all religions built on classes is deemed to corrupt itself, exemplefied by the Hewbrew religion and the Christian religions. I'm just saying that you cannot downcast the Israeli's because of their zionist doctrine, when the doctrine does not, or rarely, effect their foreign policy. I bet you that the Isreali government would be happy to co-exist with the Palestinians if the Palestinians ended their quest to destroy the Jews!
By Nucleicacidman
#52228
Granit wrote:You poor ignorant communists :roll: :moron:


What revelance does this have to the debate at hand?
User avatar
By The Sentinel
#52478
Manstein wrote:The Palestinians are not oppressed by the Israelis directly, they are oppressed by the veils provided by their own religious fanatics!

Have you any idea how insulting and hurtful those kinds of statements are to the Palestinians? That alone would be enough to make me join the intifada.

Israel is not America's lap dog!

No, it's a strategic asset. In fact it is THE strategic asset in the middle east. Without Israel the US would lose control of the entire region. They have to give them a very long leash, grotesquely so in the case of the USS Liberty for example.

I bet you that the Isreali government would be happy to co-exist with the Palestinians if the Palestinians ended their quest to destroy the Jews!

You're so naive it's almost kind of cute.
By Granit
#52693
Image

[Yeddi edit: Please refrain from falmeing other users, and note that this forum requires more than a one line agree/disagree answer.]
By Nucleicacidman
#52856
The Sentinel wrote: Have you any idea how insulting and hurtful those kinds of statements are to the Palestinians? That alone would be enough to make me join the intifada.


When everybody starts to post anti-Israel b.s. it hurts those with a sort of allegiance to the nation also.


No, it's a strategic asset. In fact it is THE strategic asset in the middle east. Without Israel the US would lose control of the entire region. They have to give them a very long leash, grotesquely so in the case of the USS Liberty for example.


(I wont argue if you think the opposite since I don't know much about this) I read an article that claimed that the attack on the Liberty was either an accident or proved not to be Israeli..I'm not sure which one.


You're so naive it's almost kind of cute.


They were willing to do so in 1948, but I guess your right. After 50 to 60 years of almost constant warfare why should they coexist with the Arabs?
By mak89gt
#53309
I agree that it was the Arabs fault in 1948, but still, Israel must stop the acts that the yugoslavians imposed on the Bosnians, the only difference between Palestine and Bosnia is the Bosnia was an open war (Please note i have stopped comparing the zionists to the 3rd reich, as i stil in soviet-empire)
Manstein: Even though the occupation continues, have not the jews got their land? how much more can they possible want? Many communists in my country believe that the zionists want a country that extends from the Euraphates to the Nile!
Also, the attitude of the Arabs has changed. Whoever the prime minister that arafat chases out may be, that premier ALWAYS is ready to co-operate with the zionists.
Also, im sure you may not appreciate it much if a foriegn power suddenly comes and chases you from your land, would you? would you like it if they demolish your house, steal your property, and dump you into a slum?
User avatar
By Monkey Angst
#55020
I think there is a very serious confusion of terms here. First, there is Zionism, the movement that held that the Jewish people are entitled to a state of their own. I agree with this. The Jews are an opressed people in nearly every nation in which they've had a community (the United States being one of the few exceptions, and even we have had our moments). I support the right of any group to form its own nation if territory is available.

Which brings us to the real argument: Not the legitimacy of Zionism per se but its territorial legitimacy. Not does Israel have a right to exist, but does it have a right to exist where it does? I feel that it did not at its founding. Prior to the Second World War, Jewish organizations legitimately purchased land in Palestine with an eye to creating a Jewish homeland, but never gained a majority in that region until 1948, when war broke out following the withdrawl of the British. Let's be clear on this, there were no good guys in this war, which pitted Arab nations eager to annex the Palestinian people (yes, there are Palestinian people, inhabitants of the Palestine administrative district of the Ottoman Empire prior to 1918) and Jewish settlers (and some terrorists, such as the Irgun) eager to annex land. The Jews won.

None of this is relevant. You heard me, none of it. We are several generations removed from the founding of Israel. It cannot be dismantled and shipped away from the land upon which it sits any more than the United States can vacate the lands formerly held by the First Nations. The question is, what solution can be applied?

As I said before, I support a homeland for any group that wants one, provided territory is available. For the Palestinians, territory is available. They're living on it. Israel, however, repeatedly encroaches on this territory, building new settlements at an alarming rate and contrary to international law. Israel has not acted in good faith to help produce a sustainable Palestinian state. For the Palestinians' part, their leaders have acted in even worse fate throughout the years, holding on to their unattainable goal of driving the Jews from Palestine to the detriment of the people they are meant to represent. Each side is led by power-hungry madmen.

Who should Communists (and Socialists, and social democrats, progressives, Greens, etc) support in this conflict? The same people we always do: The people. The people who do not drive bulldozers into private homes to clear the way for new settlements, the people who do not strap bombs to themselves and blow up cafes and buses. There is no difference between a poor Israeli Jew and a poor Palestinian Arab. Why so many of my fellow leftists have blinded themselves to this basic, simple fact is beyond me.
By The Unknown Guy
#82088
I agree with Monkey Angst. The real victims of this conflict are the people on both sides, which are dying because of the Israeli Goverment´s indiscriminate represalies, and the Palestinian terrorist´s terrorist attacks.
By Petrovich
#82100
Agreed-- and supporting the people does not mean supporting the government either.

What "Communists" should support is the struggle of the oppressed peoples in both areas, and not the government(s) of either.
By Stormy
#83260
This is turning into a rather interesting thread. I for one perfer to stand in the middle on this issue. And I don't think one communist should shove their belifs down another communists' throat. But I'm just fodder, so what do I know? :D
User avatar
By Comrade Ogilvy
#83554
I don't like jews or judaism, so why should I support Zionism?
I didn't think you supported capitalist countries, Ixabert.
By drmz
#86428
Israel is not America's lap dog! In fact Israel has gone contrary to the Americans in many circumstances, namely the Six Day War and the attack into Lebanon as well as the recent strikes into Palestinian camps. Please do not post random comments without a single string of evidence or you will just prove your incompetence at debate.



Read : World Orders , Old and new (Noam Chomsky) . Maybe you change your point of view about Israel . I can hardly blame the palestinians because of their suicide bombings , what else can they do . Do nothing and just fade away ? I think the story wouldn't be much different if there was no such thing as suicide bombings . You can call it what you want , terror , inhumane , whatever definition you want to give it . But the source of the problem must be bad enough to make people detonate themselves . I think this is not human nature , well i know that for sure , but at a certain point you get desperate enough to detonate yourself at the local (is) pizza hut .

Not going to comment more on this topic , else i'm repeating Tovarish Spetsnaz words .

[/quote]
By Comrade
#89065
Ixbert, you are a fanatic. :roll:

What are your dear "communist" zionists building their state on? Blood of palestinians. They suffered - so what? So they are supposed to make others suffer the same fate? Plus, your supporting of Kim Jung Il is dispicable indeed. What is nationalism if it is only leaderworship and torture? Calling that Korean nationalism is insulting to my culture (korean). You have no reason nor logic - only a decaying ideology that dosnt even make sense.

SKorean government has long been a dictatorship puppet under rule of gringos, but it is improving as a semi-socialist president is now in power.
Even if the country is largely americanized, the culture still exists. Even if we lose our culture, it is better than starving millions to death.

*Note that I oppose USA invasion of NK , but I also oppose communist dictatorship. :knife:
By Mr.Hedgehog
#91259
The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed.
The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.


Being Palestinian has nothing to do with being Muslim. (although I'm sure most palestinians would disagree)
Palestine existd long before Israel! (I'm very surprised no one else mentioned this) I believe it is said that it is the land Moses was told by God was the chosen land of the israelities (or whatever). Which is bullcrap, who is this 'god' (if you believe he exists and that he said this) to say that this land belongs to his 'chosen people' who are chosen and better than everyone else for no apparent reason. (following laws from the torah, which are [i]excactly[i] the same as what all Egyptians *cough* Moses *cough* would have believed. (reed raft = bullcrap, Moses = Egyptian) For example Pigs, and shell fish being unclean...

People who don't see the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-zionism annoy me.

Other religions have no land of their own...why does Judaism get one?

EDIT:
Then again most of the world's territory has been conquered by other people and they've taken control. For example New Zealand taken from Maoris and so forth...so maybe Palestininans should just be given Native reserves and be allowed to have casinos! Woo!
User avatar
By tragicclown
#91287
I would have supported Yiddish national liberation before, during, and shortly after WWII (which at the time was called Zionism), but it is reprehensable to even consider supporting a Fascist ideology like Israeli Zionism today as a Marxist. Zionism is harmless if Birobidzhan is your Zion, otherwise, it is not even up for consideration.
#146186
Ixabert wrote: One writer, summing up Kim Jong-
il and Kim il Sung's thought, said that a nation
needs to be considered in view of "a common
culture" and needs to be viewed by "taking
bloodline and language as the common features." He
said, "the territorial definition of a nation
includes fellow countrymen of the same bloodline."
(Thus Amerika and other imperialist countries are
pseudo-nations.)

We must embrace Zionism, in the name of humanity.
We are humanitarianists.


mim3 for the Maoist Internationalist Movement: You
raise a good point actually Ixabert. Given how the
"communists" you have seen do not distinguish
lines and do not sharpen the national question to
get the full benefit of theory, I can see how you
reached the conclusion you did.

Kim Il Sung went down a bad road on the national
question, abandoning Stalin. Kim was afraid
southern Korea would become a nation separate from
northern Korea. He took a "pragmatist-empiricist"
approach that since he did not like Stalin's line
for his particular situation, one data point in
the world, he threw out Stalin's theory. I say
"pragmatist-empiricist," because if we throw out
theory every time we think we have an inconvenient
fact, we will never have any theory. No theory
works 100% of the time or is understood 100% of
the time as the case with Kim.

The whole bloodline idea is an invitation to global
intra-proletarian slaughter. Kim could have told Koreans
that u.$. imperialists were breaking up their families
without taking up the bloodline theory of nation.
He overreacted to imperialist power. Sure some Taiwanese
and some Koreans want to be the 51st state. That is the
power of super-profits, a reality. The solution is to attack
imperialism and support national struggles against it, not
open the doors to global intra-proletarian slaughter with
every bloodline opposing every other one as "imperialism."

"Tovarish Spetsnaz" is also providing you an
ideological basis, though he disagrees with you in
this thread. TS is supporting an attack on
Serbia's "mini-imperialism" in other threads here.
He abandoned Stalin on the national question in which
progressive national struggles are those which
weaken imperialism. Kim Il Sung and TS-type neo-Hoxhaites
have opened the floodgates for intra-proletarian slaughter.

Here is what Stalin said: "This does not mean, of
course, that the proletariat must support every
national movement, everywhere and always, in every
individual concrete case. It means that support
must be given to such national movements as tend
to weaken, to overthrow imperialism, and not to
strengthen and preserve it. Cases occur when the
national movements in certain oppressed countries
come into conflict with the interests of the
development of the proletarian movement. In such
cases support is, of course, entirely out of the
question."

"Foundations of Leninism," by Joseph Stalin,
Works, Vol. 6, (Foreign Language Publishing House,
Moscow, 1953), pp. 145-7.

Hopefully you agree Ixabert, that I$rael has reached
the last stage of capitalism, imperialism. The Jewish
people there have corporations and demonstrated ability
to have finance capital dominating, just as in the u$a,
France, England etc. There is nothing further that Jews
can get from capitalism. There is no semi-feudalism
to uproot and Jews are not exploited by foreign imperialists.
Imperialism only brings war and environmental devastation now.
That's why we insist that progressive national struggles
have to target imperialism.


The following comes from the Kim press:

Korean nation should be reunified without fail
Pyongyang, September 22 (KCNA) -- The 36th-37th issue of the Russian newspaper "Patriot" carried an article entitled "The demarcation line can not divide the people", written by Mikhail Zemskov, editor-in-chief of the paper, to mark the 49th founding anniversary of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The United States should be blamed for the division of one country into two on the Korean Peninsula, the article said, and went on: Though the DPRK suffered a big loss through the war imposed by the United States, it defended its sovereignty and dignity and has been turned into a powerful country with advanced industry and independent politics under the leadership of the great leader comrade Kim Il Sung. The DPRK owes such achievements directly to President Kim Il Sung and Secretary Kim Jong Il and singlehearted unity is precisely the secret of vigorous advance of socialist Korea. Some time ago Secretary Kim Jong Il, who is creditably carrying forward President Kim Il Sung's idea for the country's reunification, published a famous work "Let Us Carry Out the Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung's Instructions for National Reunification" to newly indicate solutions to the problems arising in the relations between the north and the south and the relations between the DPRK and the United States. Korea is the biggest divided nation as the United States refuses to withdraw its troops from south Korea. It is a wrong, unethical intention to divide people by the demarcation line and force them to forget their bloodline and ancestors, the article noted, adding that the Korean nation should be reunified without fail.

“Whenever the government provides opportunities […]

The GOP is pretty much the anti-democracy party a[…]

I just read a few satires by Juvenal, and I still[…]

It seems from this quote that you are itching to […]