[Gravy]

Troops are to pull out of Gaza immediately. Another unilateral Israeli ceasefire came into effect today or yesterday. Will be interesting to see how long it lasts and who violates it this time.

Well....there ya have it. A whopping 22 days of peace and guess who launches the first rocket?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps ... QM20090131

I have heard that Fatah might be behind this. Does anyone know whats really going on here?

[Tailz]

Well....there ya have it. A whopping 22 days of peace and guess who launches the first rocket?

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps ... QM20090131

I have heard that Fatah might be behind this. Does anyone know whats really going on here?

What 22 days of peace? They kept on shooting and bombing each other?

[Sephardi]

;/ Lin Zexu and Benjamin are actually trying to argue about minority treatments? Only fools think that the minority in Israel get treated worse than the minority Jews and Christians in Muslim states. Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow public practice of any religion except Islam. Israel actually gives everybody the right to vote and there are 6 Arab ministers in the Knesset. The Coptics aren't treated as good as you say. I actually have a Coptic friend who can prove this for me. Get this through your head. We're not uncivilized barbarians. The Western World/First World treats their minorities better than the Third World and all Muslim countries. I can't believe that you would actually pull out this argument. You must have hit your head on a rock.

[Tailz]

;/ Lin Zexu and Benjamin are actually trying to argue about minority treatments? Only fools think that the minority in Israel get treated worse than the minority Jews and Christians in Muslim states. Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow public practice of any religion except Islam. Israel actually gives everybody the right to vote and there are 6 Arab ministers in the Knesset. The Coptics aren't treated as good as you say. I actually have a Coptic friend who can prove this for me. Get this through your head. We're not uncivilized barbarians. The Western World/First World treats their minorities better than the Third World and all Muslim countries. I can't believe that you would actually pull out this argument. You must have hit your head on a rock.

Yes, it is bad in a number of Islamic states, but just because it is bad there, and the laws of Israel dictate that Arabs and Jews should have equal rights – does not wash away the fact that there is bias, there is bigotry in Israeli society. It is not as bad as some left wing activists propose, but its not as good ether. You just have to look at Jews protesting against Arabs living next door, or the Jews protesting an Israeli-Arab singer should not represent the Jewish state in Eurovision!

[clanko]

;/ Lin Zexu and Benjamin are actually trying to argue about minority treatments? Only fools think that the minority in Israel get treated worse than the minority Jews and Christians in Muslim states. Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow public practice of any religion except Islam. Israel actually gives everybody the right to vote and there are 6 Arab ministers in the Knesset. The Coptics aren't treated as good as you say. I actually have a Coptic friend who can prove this for me. Get this through your head. We're not uncivilized barbarians. The Western World/First World treats their minorities better than the Third World and all Muslim countries. I can't believe that you would actually pull out this argument. You must have hit your head on a rock.

Well, I think the fact you answer criticism of Israel as a state, with a comparison of other 'Islamic' states shows youre pretty caught up on the us vs. them, Jews vs Muslim ballgame. The treatment of Israeli Arabs is nothing short of scandalous, a large extent of citizenship based on racial criteria makes Israeli a fundamentally undemocratic state. If you need shown examples of such, please ask and I will await your critique.

Let's be honest, this whole argument is turned on its head. Think of the froth-inducing horror Zionists feel with any minute equation of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians with the Holocaust. For them, it is universally unequivocal. Yet, roll on Ahmadinejad...and hes the new Hitler! And the Islamic Reublic of Iran...Jew Burners. Suddenly, all that history of Persian Jewry and Khomeini''s post-revolution protecting of that Jewry vanishes.

Why? Because it is an ideological war, which needs infinite pretexts. Often, impossible to create. But, seemingly manageable by your admissions.

Another thing, Israel is a leading world actor, which professes to be a democracy...as do its supporters. If the lies there, gotta take the flak as well my man.

[Sephardi]

Well, I think the fact you answer criticism of Israel as a state, with a comparison of other 'Islamic' states shows youre pretty caught up on the us vs. them, Jews vs Muslim ballgame. The treatment of Israeli Arabs is nothing short of scandalous, a large extent of citizenship based on racial criteria makes Israeli a fundamentally undemocratic state. If you need shown examples of such, please ask and I will await your critique.

Actually, I compared Israel to other Muslims states because that's what everybody has been doing in this thread, for the past few pages.

Let's be honest, this whole argument is turned on its head. Think of the froth-inducing horror Zionists feel with any minute equation of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians with the Holocaust. For them, it is universally unequivocal. Yet, roll on Ahmadinejad...and hes the new Hitler! And the Islamic Reublic of Iran...Jew Burners. Suddenly, all that history of Persian Jewry and Khomeini''s post-revolution protecting of that Jewry vanishes.

The revolution of Iran was a thing that should have been handled, but it didn't get handled, mostly because the asshole himself Jimmy Carter was president.

Why? Because it is an ideological war, which needs infinite pretexts. Often, impossible to create. But, seemingly manageable by your admissions.

Another thing, Israel is a leading world actor, which professes to be a democracy...as do its supporters. If the lies there, gotta take the flak as well my man.

Israel is a democracy. Some Arabs feel that it should be Islamic land because of the Koran law which states that all lands that were once ruled by Islam have to be always ruled by Islam. Others join the Knesset, become IDF Lieutenants, and enjoy their Universal Suffrage and Religious Rights.

[clanko]

Actually, I compared Israel to other Muslims states because that's what everybody has been doing in this thread, for the past few pages.

I have read the thread. What I said stands regardless of that fact.

The revolution of Iran was a thing that should have been handled, but it didn't get handled, mostly because the asshole himself Jimmy Carter was president.

I referred to the Islamic revolution because during that period, Persian Jewry were a granted civic-status compartively higher than that of Israeli Arabs today. I don't hold a shred of allegiance or admiration for that Iranian Islamist mob but solely referenced it because of your point.

Israel is a democracy. Some Arabs feel that it should be Islamic land because of the Koran law which states that all lands that were once ruled by Islam have to be always ruled by Islam. Others join the Knesset, become IDF Lieutenants, and enjoy their Universal Suffrage and Religious Rights.

Are you actually interested in politics? Or, do you simply care strongly about Israel and what it entails..for you?

Israel cannot be a democracy as long as it takes drastic actions in policy to increase its 'jewish character'? From racist laws in land...to marriage...the evidence is there. Now, the Israeli Arabs who suffer such legislation are not all Islamists that youve come to know and hate in the media.

Do you know what the JNF does. In conjunction with the ILA owns around 15% of Israeli land and sells exlusively to jews as a matter of constitution..functioning as a quasi-official arm of Israel's racist and discriminatory system. One useful example, amongst many others.

[danholo]

clanko,

You will never understand that Israel has a perfect right to treat its Jewish citizens in that manner; its desired goal was never to be an "America" but a state for Israel. What Israelis don't understand is that time is running short. Israel treats is Arab minority as indigenous foreigners. They are a part of this land, very much so, but don't share the similar culture and history as the "bulk of the population". This situation should be viewed from a pragmatic, instead of ideological perspective.

Both are in the right, both are in the wrong. Thanks for us Jews not dying out, this is what the world has to endure. We will go back home, no matter how many times you try or manage to kick us out. :P

[clanko]

Spare me the Zionist diatribe Danholo.

What is it with this homogenised 'Israel' you speak of, do you truly believe it is such a cohesive entity?

You will never understand that Israel has a perfect right to treat its Jewish citizens in that manner

I know what rights Israel's elected government has, I know what rights are enshrined in international law, I know what rights I think are just or should be protected. Does this have any bearing on Israel's policy? Of course not.

time is running short

You will probably never experience the epiphany of realise how chillingly identical in wording and indeed context, those words are;fascists talking about the impending race-war/ race-crisis / failure of multicultural society. Good stuff.

This situation should be viewed from a pragmatic, instead of ideological perspective.

Well unfortunately, your ideological (Zionism ) viewpoint leads you to the belief in the validity of such 'pragmatism'. I dont doubt many Zionists view enhancing the Jewish character of Israel via a systematic erosion of Arab rights and culture within Israel and Palestine...is pragmatic. I do however expect rational people to view it as...wait for it....wrong.

[danholo]

What is it with this homogenised 'Israel' you speak of, do you truly believe it is such a cohesive entity?

I do not recall speaking of a homogenized Israel.

I know what rights Israel's elected government has, I know what rights are enshrined in international law, I know what rights I think are just or should be protected. Does this have any bearing on Israel's policy? Of course not.

Of course...? Are you speaking about moral, or legal rights, exactly? I know you know which rights you think are just but I guess we will never agree on the context in which they should be applied and under which priority. See, under International law, Israel has a right to exist.

Well unfortunately, your ideological (Zionism ) viewpoint leads you to the belief in the validity of such 'pragmatism'. I dont doubt many Zionists view enhancing the Jewish character of Israel via a systematic erosion of Arab rights and culture within Israel and Palestine...is pragmatic. I do however expect rational people to view it as...wait for it....wrong.

The Jews in Palestine, who built their own community, wanted to exist separately from their Arab neighbors. The Arabs did not allow it do so, and we're still awaiting for the results. Were the Jews wrong in wanting to decide their own fate in a modern nation state, and preserving their own culture and society? What sort of erosion is occurring exactly, considering Israel's progressive nature and surrounding and internal Arabic cultures? The Arabs are still here, man, and aren't going anywhere.

You will probably never experience the epiphany of realise how chillingly identical in wording and indeed context, those words are;fascists talking about the impending race-war/ race-crisis / failure of multicultural society. Good stuff.

And you will never realize what leads my thought process, or the words I utter. I guess you really don't regard Israel in a very positive light... I can only guess what you think Israel and Israelis are like. By time is running short I meant that Israelis have little incentive to vote, which says quite a bit about what kind situation this country is in. Unless Israelis show some backbone by not letting hard line idiots run amok and release the Palestinians from their prison, Israel won't be able to improve on the inside. All hostility should be met with force but it makes no sense that the situation should continue like this any longer. Israel can't afford an occupation, and Palestinians do have a right to live their lives how they see fit. Frankly, if Israelis vote for a right-wing government, it will indeed be some sort of weird pseudo-nationalist entity. Intense. The problem is, Israeli culture is an antithesis to fascism but its government will behave from a national socialist mindset and will hurt Israeli interests if it continues with its policy of perpetual violence. It could also escalate the situation into a full blown war with both Hamas and Hizballah.