[Parvus]

Yes, I saw that you are a support of the one state solution. Get over it, it is not realistic. From my personal point of view, this would have been perfect. but from my knowledge of my people and my neighbors, this is simply extremely non realistic. The middle east is not south Africa, you are supposed to know it. The background of the story is different, the circumstances, the religions, the people, everything is different.

I know it's not something that can happen today. I think there are two options to reach a one-state solution:
1- Palestinian resistance wins, with support from international community (the greatest support would be that of the Americans, forcing their own state to cut aids to Israel)
2- People of Israel revolt against their own terrorist state with demands for a peaceful solution

Well, I'm aware that none of the two look any realistic today. I wish there was another option. But I find the 2-state solution even less realistic. Israel doesn't follow ceasefires in order not to give the Palestinians any chance to re-arm, so how on Earth is it going to agree on a state? Whenever a peace treaty becomes an option, Israel will either openly break it or provoke the Palestinians (like Sharon did during the Oslo talks) in order to corrupt the process.

I don't know exactly what you call "racism". Lets just talk about "the civil situation".
The "civil situation" of the Arabs who are Israeli citizens is far better than the one of the jews who used to live in Arab countries in the past and in the present.

You are repeating common mythical Arab narrative. This is not true. You didn't check to see if the myth is true, you just believe what they tell you, right?
Jews were persecuted in all countries of Islam and were the first to flee to Israel after it was established. They were also the only jewish communities who fled in staggering numbers, sometimes literally to the 100%. If you know more about the characteristic of the jewish immigration to Palestine, you should know that such staggering numbers in such a short time occur only when personal security is in danger.
If you are interested to know more, don't be mad (=as people, espcially Arabs, usually are when somebody challenges this myth), just ask me for the facts, that might perhaps bust this myth which is so popular in the Muslim world.

After some quick research, I must admit that you are right. Sorry about it.

True.
But since it will be an Arab state, the statistics that it will not be a very racist place does not look so good....

I understand your concern, but that racism is still there mainly because of Israel. Honestly, how many people in Israel are there that openly speak against this war, try to do something about it? If Israel had lost the support of the international community, but more importantly the support of the Israelis, I strongly believe that this racism would be defeated, at least in the Palestinian Arabs (which I think is less than most of the other Arab communities) and chances for a united, non-racist, secular Palestine would be pretty high.

But just don't expect the Palestinians to love you when you have the war, the walls, the operations and stuff. It's the least realistic of all.

[chaostrivia]

1- Palestinian resistance wins, with support from international community (the greatest support would be that of the Americans, forcing their own state to cut aids to Israel)

I am not comparing the Palestinians with the Taleban.
But the likelihood that this will happen is like the likelihood that general mcchrystal (U.S. commander in Afghanistan) will show up with a white flag at the cave of ben laden.
If the Americans will cut aids to Israel, this would be not nice of them and not smart of them to do, but this will not mean the end and destruction of the state of Israel.

2- People of Israel revolt against their own terrorist state with demands for a peaceful solution

Hehe. you are a mistery to me. one sentence is so rational, intellectual and knowledgeable, the next is so irrational and so non-intellectual conforming to the lowest common denominator - or the best cliches of the anti-Israeli propaganda narrative.
The state of Israel is not a terrorist state. If the state of Israel is a terrorist state then there is no state in conflict in the world which is not a terrorist state. Let me rephrase it for you:
"2- If the Israeli left will win over the radicals and the extremist, and reach a strong hand for the palestinians offering them much more that has been offered so far".

Well, I'm aware that none of the two look any realistic today.

Yup.

I wish there was another option. But I find the 2-state solution even less realistic.

The one state solution was a good solution for 1948. Too bad the Arabs rejected it.
In 2009, there is only one solution, which is a two-state solution.
Another solution, which is "taboo", is to "cut" a (small) piece from Jordan to make the Palestinian state a bit larger.

Honestly, how many people in Israel are there that openly speak against this war, try to do something about it?

There are literally dozens of Israeli peace movements. google all of the following: gush shalom, yesh gvul, shalom achshav, just vision, hagada hasmalit, yesh din, betselem, mahsom watch, bat shalom, hamifkad haleumi, seruv - to name a few from my memory.
Fact:
For every Palestinian that will publicly say "The Qassam Rockets are immoral, stupid, and against our interests", you will find 1000 Israelis who will say: "The occupation is immoral, stupid, and against our interests".
An Israeli PM today will NEVER get elected if he says: "I will never agree to a Palestinian state".
A Palestinian PM today will NEVER get elected if he says: "The 'resistance' is an illegitimate way to fulfill our national aspirations'".

Israel doesn't follow ceasefires

The narrative again... Israel follows all cease fires. You are probably referring to Cast Lead. Factually, the main event that lead to cast lead was Hamas's refusal to extend the cease fire - despite that Israeli literally BEGGED that it will do so. 7 days after the rocket fire which was terrorizing the Israel citizens between 2001 and 2008 resumed, it was time to make it stop.

"On December 20, Hamas officially announced that it would not extend the cease-fire which had expired on December 19. It cited the Israeli border blockade as the primary reason and resumed shelling of the western Negev.[66] Israel said that it had begun to ease the blockade, but reimposed it when Hamas failed to end all rocket fire and weapons smuggling.[67]" (Wikipedia)

If Israel had lost the support of the international community

Not true. If you look at the UN voting patterns, All of the western democracies stand behind Israel, some of the important not western countries also. I think that if Djibouti doesn't support Israel, we'll manage to survive......
To name a few examples:
In Angela Merkel's recent speech before the US senate she said, quote, "Whoever threatens Israel also threatens us".
Sarkozy is also a very enthusiastic supporter of Israel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/962361.html
and Berlusconi just loves our jewish ass so much, that he once said that Israel deserves to be in the EU.

but more importantly the support of the Israelis

Again speaking non-sense?
Can it be that "Turkey will lose the support of the Turkish?" ....
you don't have to repeat every BS that you hear in the narrative fed by the anti-Israeli sentiment

I strongly believe that this racism would be defeated

This is not racism. This is just a conflict between two ethnic groups. both have a very good case.

But just don't expect the Palestinians to love you when you have the war, the walls, the operations and stuff. It's the least realistic of all.

The world seems to have forgotten already, but I didn't.
When the IDF occupied the WB, the Palestinian accepted the Israeli soldiers with flowers and rise.
In my childhood, my dad used to take me to Jenin to fix the car, buy groceries, have a meal and a good time.

Don't be confused: The peacefulness has become hatred because of the horrible Palestinian brainwashing media, the twisted history taught in the textbooks, the national awakening and aspirations. And all of this led to Israel reaction of "walls, operations and stuff", which did not exist 20 years ago. I assume that you don't quite know how the Palestinians "educate" their children.
You remember the scandal about the turkish anti-Israeli and anti-semitic TV show that nobody watched in Turkey?
In the Palestinian TV this and much worse than this is what they get. every day. all day long. need examples? literally thousands of them are on youtube. I can post here "the best of" if you want.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Chaostrivia wrote:

When the IDF occupied the WB, the Palestinian accepted the Israeli soldiers with flowers and rise.

Really?
Do you have a link to back that up?


.

[chaostrivia]

Really?
Do you have a link to back that up?

errr...
In my many years in Israel I have heard many people, some of which participated in the six-day war, who claimed that they were accepted with shout of happiness, flowers and rise. So it is for me "common knowledge". Yes, it could be an Israeli myth, but I'm pretty sure it isn't.

I invested 5 minutes trying to find it in English and I couldn't (I did find it several times in Hebrew).
The incredible amount of propaganda on the web of both sides in English make googling such a small detail impossible...The closest thing I could find on the web to provide "indirect proof" is this: Middle East Journal, Vol. 32, No. 2 (Spring, 1978), pp. 155-166 http://www.jstor.org/pss/4325737 (2nd paragraph below the quote).

The Palestinian-Jordan relationships were based on mistrust and filled with bad atmosphere. The Palestinians blamed not only the zionists but also the Arabs, including Jordan, for the "nakba" (arabic "disaster" - their name for the 1948 war). Remember that it was not until 1987 that the Palestinian nationalism rose again (like in the 30's). Before that, in 1967-1987, they were very friendly and hospitable to the Israelis. In my childhood I went with my father on weekly basis to Jenin to have a good falafel, couple of laughs, fix the car, etc'. Palestinians were free to travel and work in "mainland" Israel as if they were Israeli citizens. If I go to Jenin today on my own I come back as a corpse.

Merry Christmas to everyone!
I went to the Church of Annunciation today with two czech tourists who found Mass in Arabic to be pretty cool.

[chaostrivia]

oh... actually.. another "indirect proof"...

in Israel every event is usually attached in the national conscious with couple of songs that "represent" it in the national collective memory. This is even valid for the terrible 2nd intifada with the terrible suicide bombers.
One of the songs of the 6 day war is called: "Flowers in the (gun)barrel". (for the flowers that the Palestinians put in the tank barrels...)

Retro video:

(such a militaristic Israeli society... I don't think that in any other country a music video with so many uniform is possible... )
And a "remix" from the late 90's:

The chorus say:
The sun will rise from Gaza to Rafah (=gaza strip)
The moon will whiten on the top of Mt. Hermon (=golan heights)
Flowers in the barrel and girls on the tank (=west bank accepted IDF with flowers and rise )
The soldiers come back home

Hope u're convinced now, if not, at least I gave it a shot.

p.s. the most famous songs of the 1973 war... notice how the hapiness changed with sadness..

classics...

[danholo]

My teacher says Palestinians wanted a state already in 1967. He says non-Jewish Palestinians identified themselves as a people in 1922 or something.

I know it's not something that can happen today.
Well, I'm aware that none of the two look any realistic today.

All of this is impossible. First of all, for something to occur, the premises have to exist. What you described is not reality.

[Tailz]

When the IDF occupied the WB, the Palestinian accepted the Israeli soldiers with flowers and rise.

I don't doubt that this happened in a number of incedences, sort of like a number of Russians welcoming the invading Germans in the 40's as liberators freeing them from the yoke of the evil Soviets. But to assume that was the norm - then why did the Israeli's need the guns and tanks in the first place if the Palestinians were awaiting their arrival with cheers and flowers?

More than likely this is an exagurated Israeli myth.

[danholo]

But to assume that was the norm - then why did the Israeli's need the guns and tanks in the first place if the Palestinians were awaiting their arrival with cheers and flowers?

Because the Jordanian army happened to occupy the West Bank at the time...?!

More than likely this is an exagurated Israeli myth.

Probably not. You are the one taking it out of proportion.

[Tailz]

You don't find it curious that the bulk if information to backup this story that the West Bank inhabatants welcomed the Israeli soldiers with flowers (as Chaostrivia put forwards) is from the "liberators" singing their own praises?

[danholo]

I don't doubt it at all. As a Palestinian, I wouldn't be expressing that information in a public sphere. Seriously. I'd like to see some pictures as well, but there might be truth to chaos' words.

[Tailz]

I don't doubt it at all. As a Palestinian, I wouldn't be expressing that information in a public sphere. Seriously. I'd like to see some pictures as well, but there might be truth to chaos' words.

Thus why I wrote that I don't doubt it happened, but doubt it was the norm. But rather something Israelis have grasped at to self-congratulate themselves through exageration - and music video clips, the ultimate propaganda tool?

[danholo]

Thus why I wrote that I don't doubt it happened, but doubt it was the norm. But rather something Israelis have grasped at to self-congratulate themselves through exageration - and music video clips, the ultimate propaganda tool?

How kind of you. No offense, though, I think we are capable of realizing this ourselves. chaostrivia, I assume, wanted this to be known to the ignorant: Palestinians actually welcomed Israelis in some instances. It sort of makes you think if the general view is that the brutal Israelis are invading those poor people. I don't think he is deluded to think it was universal. After all, he lives there himself, and actually has Arabs as friends. To tell you the truth, your pointing out the obvious seems somewhat arrogant, even if you don't think of it that way. This is why I don't like your idea of "equality"; you try to stop us from thinking. This takes parallels with the issue with archeology. You totally assume some weird version of it how it's presented but it's quite obvious that depending on "which tour" you take, you'll get a different version. The Israeli version, or official one, is very academic and honest, yet you, from probably thin air, think that it's political with its overtly Zionist twist. Not that it has anything to do with reality but WHO CARES. We create our own reality, right? In other words, maybe you should think about the words of Churchill a bit more when it comes to your own self even more.

[Tailz]

Looking back on the last few posts by Chaostrivia on this subject, it is hard for me so see much in the way of balance between understanding that this reception of flowers was anything but an accepted norm according to Chaostrivia’s accepted “national consciousness” myth that the Palestinians welcomed them with open arms and flowers in gun barrels. Since he invested so much in writing and find a number of hyperlinks to Israeli music videos about the song as proof of the welcoming spirit of the Palestinians – thus I think my comment that this is mostly just Israeli’s singing their own praises to build upon selected events through exaggeration and self-congratulation.

[danholo]

So, in other words, you really have no idea what you are talking about, and making mere assumptions?

[Tailz]

Since Chaostrivia devoted 13 words to maybe its a myth. Then writes two forum posts full of links to prove his point, I think my assumption is warrented.