[grassroots1]

But it wasn't being used as a smokescreen in Israel, Captain Sam, it was used against civilians and civilian areas. And does anyone understand the fact that even conventional bombs blow up and kill people? And does anyone understand the fact that Israel is needlessly killing people, whether it's with conventional or non-conventional weaponry?

[Beren]

Maybe your family is supportive of Israel, maybe your family is Jewish and supportive of Israel, who knows?

Maybe debating with them about the issue just doesn't make any sense at all.

[Waltanheri]

Chemical Weapons Convention does not outlaw WP. Why? Because it is not used as a weapon. And yes, it is not prohibited to use it in civilian areas. You know the circumstances in Gaza. It is foolish to demand that no civilian gets injured during the warfare in the strip. It is not poosible and collateral damage is inevitable.

[grassroots1]

I don't give a flying fuck whether it's 'legal' to use non-conventional chemical weapons in Gaza, because they shouldn't be using conventional ones in the first place. "Warfare." Who are you kidding? It's a one-sided massacre whenever Israel decides that's how they want it to be. Then a Palestinian gets entirely fed up and shoots a rocket into Israel, giving them pretext and ammunition for the next massacre. It's absolutely sick how willing people are to defend the despicable actions of Israel merely because they identify with the Jewish people or some bullshit like that.

I talked to one of my friends one time, she had a banner up on her myspace that said "Wherever I stand, I stand with Israel." I went up to her and discussed this with her, I expressed my concern that this was, in some sense, blind loyalty, and that there is a difference between having pride and an appreciation for Jewish culture and saying that you're OK with everything that the Israeli government, the Israeli state, is doing. I asked her, what if Israel perpetrated a holocaust of the Palestinian people (I used the word), she had no answer for me and she started to cry.

I know now that this is because her family pressures her to support Israel, and I'm sure she knew that some of what the state had done was wrong, but she still wanted to please her sisters and her parents. Personally, I say fuck 'em, but I'm not in her circumstance.

Fellas, in the same way that I would stand against a massacre of Israeli people, I stand against a massacre of Palestinians.

[War Angel]

Fellas, in the same way that I would stand against a massacre of Israeli people, I stand against a massacre of Palestinians.

Then, kindly, post evidence of such a massacre. I want evidence of Israelis actively killing dozens, hundreds, thousands and millions of Palestinian Arabs, face-to-face, without provocation.

[grassroots1]

The massacre in January of this year is entirely sufficient. 1,500 Palestinian individuals blown up, murdered for the sake of Israeli expansion! Congratu-fucking-lations War Angel, these are the atrocities you're supporting right now! What does it take for you fucking people to understand that Palestinians are people with families who live life like everyone else, and that no one deserves to be subjected to these kinds of dismal, horrendous circumstances. NO one. Even if their family member got fed up and shot a rocket into Israel. Even then.

[Waltanheri]

Oh yeah, rocket shooting has always helped a lot. Too bad Gandhi did not try it.

[grassroots1]

I never said shooting rockets helped, I believe the opposite. Carpet bombing doesn't help much either, duh.

[chaostrivia]

murdered for the sake of Israeli expansion!

So, teach me something new. I just can't wait to hear this...
What expansion?
Maps of the murders and the expansion that the murder should serve will be appereciated.
and How exactly did the murder serve the Israeli expansion from above.

[grassroots1]

The defense of settlements that are encroaching upon the land of Palestinians is called Israeli expansion. The murder of 1,500 Palestinians is called murder for the sake of Israeli expansion.

[Captain Sam]

Carpet bombing doesn't help much either

When has Israel ever used carpet bombing?
If Israel used carpet bombing in Gaza, Gaza would be flattened. Israel has used precise strikes from gunships to target militants (40 mm gun), not bombs. I don't think Israel has ever used bombs in Gaza.

[grassroots1]

I don't know if it means bombs were literally used, but here's one case where they at least use the same term:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... rael-obama

Israel's assault on Gaza has exacted the bloodiest toll of civilian lives yet, when the bombing of UN schools being used as refugee centres and of housing killed more than 50 people, including an entire family of seven young children.

And really, does it matter? They killed 1,500 people and wounded thousands more. I can't imagine that all of these people were Palestinian activists, let alone violent ones, and even if they were, it doesn't justify the massacre that took place in January. This is one of the most horrifying atrocities we've seen in a while (although they are happening more and more frequently) and plenty of people are willing to apologize for Israel right off the bat. It doesn't make sense to me. Especially Jewish people with a history involving Nazi Germany and the holocaust. People who do that are hypocrisy incarnate.

[chaostrivia]

The massacre in January of this year is entirely sufficient. 1,500 Palestinian individuals blown up, murdered for the sake of Israeli expansion!

So, teach me something new. I just can't wait to hear this...
What expansion?
Maps of the murders and the expansion that the murder should serve will be appereciated.
and How exactly did the murder serve the Israeli expansion from above.

The defense of settlements that are encroaching upon the land of Palestinians is called Israeli expansion. The murder of 1,500 Palestinians is called murder for the sake of Israeli expansion.

I asked you three questions:
A) What expansion? : that one you answered.
B) How does the murders help the expansion? or, what difference do they make? how are they necessary for the sake of the expansion? why would the expansion of (A) be impossible without the murders?
an answer to this question start something like: "The murders are necessary to support the expansion, because......"
C) I asked for a map that will display the locations of the murders vs. the locations of the settlements that the murders are meant to serve, according to you. this is meant to complement you answer for (B), so that I will exactly understand what is going on in your mind. post it here.

At the moment I have no clue what you are talking about and I have a strong suspicion that you have no clue either.
So please clarify.
Thanks.

[Captain Sam]

I don't know if it means bombs were literally used, but here's one case where they at least use the same term:

They weren't actual bombs. Israel uses some sort of variant of the C-130 Hercules, which is a gunship. Sort of like an aerial artillery strike. It's far more precise than dropping an actual bomb, and doesn't do nearly as much damage as a bomb would have.

This is what an Israeli gunship in action looks like.
[youtube]jwP_LusgPAw[/youtube]

And really, does it matter? They killed 1,500 people and wounded thousands more. I can't imagine that all of these people were Palestinian activists, let alone violent ones, and even if they were, it doesn't justify the massacre that took place in January. This is one of the most horrifying atrocities we've seen in a while (although they are happening more and more frequently) and plenty of people are willing to apologize for Israel right off the bat. It doesn't make sense to me. Especially Jewish people with a history involving Nazi Germany and the holocaust. People who do that are hypocrisy incarnate.

Over half of those people that were killed were Hamas militants. That's pretty good for such a densely populated region. There was no massacre. If it was a massacre, then it would of been an indiscriminate killing, which just isn't the case. If you want to look at horrifying war zones, how about taking a look at Kongo (which everyone seems to ignore). It's the bloodiest war since WWII. There is cannibalism going on for crying out loud.

Of course, everyone just wants to focus on what the Jews are doing, rather than look elsewhere.

Your argument is ridiculous. There is no genocide, there is no indiscriminate killing. Israel was attacked, and it retaliated. There are no similarities between Nazis and Israeli's. You're being irrational.

[Gitana]

Nearly half of those people that were killed were Hamas militants.

That's pretty good

there is no indiscriminate killing.

....

[Captain Sam]

Edited to over half. (just double-checked)
And yes, they were. It's what IDF sources say, which is really the only source, other than Hamas itself.

It's unfortunate that many civilians died, but sadly it was unavoidable. Gaza is such a densely populated region, and Hamas will fire rockets from the tops of schools, mosques and hospitals. It's especially difficult when Hamas employs those tactics.

[chaostrivia]

Gaza is such a densely populated region

The Gaza stripe is the most densely populated region in the world.

and Hamas will fire rockets from the tops of schools, mosques and hospitals. It's especially difficult when Hamas employs those tactics.

More specifically:

and many more...

[grassroots1]

B) How does the murders help the expansion? or, what difference do they make? how are they necessary for the sake of the expansion? why would the expansion of (A) be impossible without the murders?
an answer to this question start something like: "The murders are necessary to support the expansion, because......"

Well, look, Palestinians have a negative reaction to the encroachment of Israeli settlements on their land, and where some respond with peaceful activism, some do not. If Israel hopes to accelerate and continue this expansion, their only option is to marginalize and take down this activism as much as possible. So I don't know if the murders are necessary for expansion, but, like I said, they happened for the sake of it.

And fuck a map, sorry, I don't have time.

They weren't actual bombs. Israel uses some sort of variant of the C-130 Hercules, which is a gunship. Sort of like an aerial artillery strike. It's far more precise than dropping an actual bomb, and doesn't do nearly as much damage as a bomb would have.

Oh, so that was a really precise bombing when they blew up UN schools? Now I feel a lot better.

Over half of those people that were killed were Hamas militants.

Source?

And I had the same reaction as Gitana... fuck that.

Of course, everyone just wants to focus on what the Jews are doing, rather than look elsewhere.

Your argument is ridiculous. There is no genocide, there is no indiscriminate killing. Israel was attacked, and it retaliated. There are no similarities between Nazis and Israeli's. You're being irrational.

You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?

[chaostrivia]

Well, look, Palestinians have a negative reaction to the encroachment of Israeli settlements on their land, and where some respond with peaceful activism, some do not. If Israel hopes to accelerate and continue this expansion, their only option is to marginalize and take down this activism as much as possible. So I don't know if the murders are necessary for expansion, but, like I said, they happened for the sake of it.

Or, in other words: "I have absolutely no clue what I was talking about".

And fuck a map, sorry, I don't have time.

I didn't think you will post a map, it takes just two minutes though. I'm not sure that you can pinpoint Israel on a blank world map.

Sorry that we didn't come to debate anything yet, as I couldn't understand how you think and why you think that (which is a precondition before I try to convince you in anything...). Thanks for clarifying that you have no clue either.

I am still trying to think of a possible most imaginary scenario who the "murder" of 1,500 civilians and terrorists in Gaza can be "for the sake of Israeli expansion". I can't think of anything possible, not even theoretically, and not even using a most crazy theory.

Therefore, at this point I will have to conclude that you are insane.

[War Angel]

Israel uses some sort of variant of the C-130 Hercules, which is a gunship.

Israel is not in the possession, nor does it use the AC-130 heavy ground attack gunship. Israeli airstrikes are conducted using jet fighters (mostly F-16C\Ds and F-15Is) and special UAVs.