[abu afak]

77% of British Mandate was lopped and made Jordan, no Jews allowed.



Jordan is 70% 'Palestinian'.
Leaving the other 23% divided roughly 13-10 for the Jews.

Meaning the Arabs aka Palestinians got 87% of Mandate Palestine.
(the Pink AND Red Areas)

And ½ of the Jews 13% was the Negev Desert. (lower ½ the light Blue Area above)
So Jews really got about 6% of the usable land of the Original Mandate..and about 1% of the Ottoman land.
(The arabs got 99% of the land and 100% of the resources.
If you want to keep breaking Arabs down into small sub-groups like the nonexistant-at-the-time 'palestinians', one can always find small injustice.)

AND unlike in the surrounding states... Arabs still live in/make up 20% of Current Israel's population within that land. Had they not rejected the partition/started a war in 1948, They might even be a majority by now.

Also not seen on maps? 2/3 of what became Israel was State Land, passing from the Ottomans, to the British, to the Jews; owned by NO Arab.
This Includes the Half alone of Israel that was/Is the Negev Desert.



Yes, the lower half of that little that red spot/Israel- is the Negev Desert, State Land under the Ottomans, owned by No Arab....and about 15-20% more that was also state land.
And 20% of the population of the upper half of the Red Dot- is Arab.
-

[jessupjonesjnr87]

? ? ?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Arabs still live in/make up 20% of Current Israel's population within that land. Had they not rejected the partition/started a war in 1948, They might even be a majority by now.

Yes, it would've been better for everyone had the Muslims not made the stupid decision to go to war with Israel. The Middle East would be less chaotic and there would be less extremism in Israel/Palestine. It's too bad these competing religious groups can't shut up and get along.

[pugsville]

The Modern State of Israel was founded on the dispossession of more than 80% of the local native population of all their land and possession , their expulsion and denial of their civil rights, property rights, citizenship rights and human rights.

Post all the irrelevant crap you want it's just crap.

The Dispossession of the most of the local native population is FACT.

[abu afak]

The Modern State of Israel was founded on the dispossession of more than 80% of the local native population of all their land and possession, their expulsion and denial of their civil rights, property rights, citizenship rights and human rights.

Post all the irrelevant crap you want it's just crap.

The Dispossession of the most of the local native population is FACT.

Links for those claims?
When you make such specific and dramatic claims you owe the board a link.
Comprende? And try not to make it electronic-cacca or oxymoron 'palestineremembered'.

In the 50 years previous to 1948 'dispossession' was Insignificant.
In fact, the Arab population Exploded in every decade after the 1880s; AND, grew twice as fast/rushed into the areas the Zionist settled in.

The 1947/1948 Partition involved NOT a single Arab having to move. Not one.
There would have been a 60/40 Jewish State and a near 100% Arab state.
The Arab-started War Did result in 'dispossession' but hardly Israel's fault.
War is for keeps, you win em, you lose em.
They were playing to eliminate Israel and the Jews in it; they Lost.
That's why your claim is so Disingenuously vague; Cause-and-effect you don't wanna/can't elaborate

Nevertheless, Israel did offer to take at least 100,000 refugees back, but the Arabs refused, lest they recognize/acknowledge the state.

If there's nothing else you'd like to dispute from the OP (and there was just about Nothing), we will now accept it as record.
-

[pugsville]

The Zionists started the the 1948 War. The sought to impose their minority government on the rest of Palestine by force.

The proposed Partition of the Mandate of Palestine gave most of the land and all claims about the Negev aside most of the best land to Zionists. The Division was ridiculously one sided, why did 30 times as many Palestinians end up up living as a minority in the proposed Jewish state as vica versa. If the partition was equality with regards to the desire of both groups to self rule the numbers should have been about equal.

The Vast majority of Palestinians did not bear Arms in the conflict, the state of Israel decided to pass laws and dispossess 80% of Palestinians of their land . Legalised theft. It wasnt against the guilty or those involved in violence, it was simple they had the land, the Zionists wanted it, they had superior force , they took it.

Israel *IS* stolen land.

[Noelnada]

Yes it is stolen land, you must give it back to the Brits! or Frenchs. Germans would do as well. It's our fucking Jerusalem holy kingdom, remember ?

[Sayed Zakerya]

850000 Palestinians were expelled by the Zionists in 1948. Polish, Russian, German & Hungarian Jew citizens were transferred to Palestine to settle in the abandoned Palestinian homes, lands & property.

The Zionist conquer of Palestine is one of the worst genocidal attacks in the modern history.

[Le Gros Bonnet]

Quite simply, before 1947 there was no such thing as Israel.

Then suddenly the zionists declared a region and said it was an independent state.

Logic and physics says they stole the land from someone who had it before them by declaring it a state.

Of course if the place was called "Palestine there were "Palestinians" living there.

Any why have to completely omitted mention of the Naqba?

[Wrath_014]

The Zionists started the the 1948 War. The sought to impose their minority government on the rest of Palestine by force.

What?!

This is plain wrong for the start!

between 1947 to 1948 - Local war between Jewish organizations to Local arabs.

The war escalated after the Declartion of Independence by Ben Gurioun. Escalated by the choice made by arabic leaders to launch a full scale war against Israel - BTW, Israel had a very small army with little equipment, basically the IDF was eclectic of various Jewish organizations.

I've showed numerous times that the local arabic leaders (Palestinian), chosed to leave in most cases, because of the promise they got from the arabic legion leaders.

To say that Israel, Zionist or whatever started the war is plain wrong and incorrect. They (Arabic legion, Local Arabs) chose to reject the Partition plan and to go to war, mainly to annihilate Israel.

850000 Palestinians were expelled by the Zionists in 1948.

Please do provide facts or links.

Quite simply, before 1947 there was no such thing as Israel.

Palestine as a state didn't exist too. So what?

Then suddenly the zionists declared a region and said it was an independent state.

Suddenly? You said you debated on this manner for 10 years...... So, are you ignoring history because you don't know or you choose to?

Logic and physics says they stole the land from someone who had it before them by declaring it a state.

Stole....

Most of the land was empty. Moreover, 15% were bought by KKL.

Of course if the place was called "Palestine there were "Palestinians" living there.

By the britts. BY THE BRITTS. Not by locals. They didn't refer themselves as Palestinians. After the creation of Israel , arabs took the name Palestine.

Funny thing, Some Jews did call it "Falastina" - but mainly because of the Brittish, the name was -Eretz Israel.

Any why have to completely omitted mention of the Naqba?

Huh.. Naqba... The disaster.

I can go on and on about it, but the fact is, 68% chose to leave their homes MAINLY due to their mofti's decision. Others, left during the war, because war is a terrifying, and some did in fact in small cases leave because of exile.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.[27]

You know, they refer the creation of Israel as the Naqba.

[Le Gros Bonnet]

They objected to the sudden declaration of independence by Israel and the very speedy entry into Palestine, during the A/I war, killing, evicting, bombing tens of thousnds of Palestinians out of their own land with no right of return.
At the same time Irgun and Lehi attacked the British forces there to make sure they coud not defend the Palestinians.
If that isn't theft I don't know what is. Most states since medieval times merely protect their own borders, not annex and exclude the native population. Even Rome allowed the population to remain when they took over their land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab% ... sraeli_War

[Wrath_014]

They objected to the sudden declaration of independence by Israel and the very speedy entry into Palestine, during the A/I war, killing, evicting, bombing tens of thousnds of Palestinians out of their own land with no right of return.

Speedy entry?

68 years is a speedy entry to you?

Boombing?

Do you know that the IDF almost had no equipment nor Tanks nor Planes at all?

So please, stick to the REAL facts.

At the same time Irgun and Lehi attacked the British forces there to make sure they coud not defend the Palestinians.

The Lehi mostly, because they were against the Britts not becasue they wanted to jam their help to the Palestinians.

If that isn't theft I don't know what is. Most states since medieval times merely protect their own borders, not annex and exclude the native population. Even Rome allowed the population to remain when they took over their land

Learn history lady.

If you choose Romans as your example, please elaborate on how they used to "treat" their populations.

[Le Gros Bonnet]

I am speaking about the 1948 Naqba. A part of the 1947/1948 Iraeli-Arab war. What are you on with 68 years? There was no IDF. There was the Haganah, Irgun and the Lehi.

I sugget YOU read some history. I posted you a link. Please do me the courtesy of readiing it.

Romans integrated their conquered populations, left them their lands, customs, religions and a way to make a living. Unlike the Israelis whd destroyed the Palestinian homes and towns, killed off those they couldn't drive off and refused to allow any right of return even to this day.

Theft pure and simple.

[Zionist Nationalist]

850000 Palestinians were expelled by the Zionists in 1948. Polish, Russian, German & Hungarian Jew citizens were transferred to Palestine to settle in the abandoned Palestinian homes, lands & property.

The Zionist conquer of Palestine is one of the worst genocidal attacks in the modern history.

There is no such thing as "Palestinians" Most of them are just arab immigrants from Egypt Syria Jordan and even some from saudi arabia (mostly the bedouins in the negev) there was never any nation called palestina none 100 or 200 years ago called himself a palestinian

so cut the bullshit and enjoy your new "democratic" government

[Sayed Zakerya]

What?!

This is plain wrong for the start!

between 1947 to 1948 - Local war between Jewish organizations to Local arabs.

The war escalated after the Declartion of Independence by Ben Gurioun. Escalated by the choice made by arabic leaders to launch a full scale war against Israel - BTW, Israel had a very small army with little equipment, basically the IDF was eclectic of various Jewish organizations.

Not correct. The clashes started after UNGA 181 decision that was processed , facilitated & enforced by the US / Other colonial power to impose undeserved legitimacy on the Zionist project.
The far stronger Zionist Gangs ( Haganah, Palmakh, Irgun & Lehi) launched aerial attacks on the Palestinian inhabitants between Novemebr 1947 till the End of March 1948.
On the 30th of March, the Haganah started the execution of Plan D whose targets were to occupy the UNGA 181 decision nominated Jewish state lands & to evacuate these from its Palestinian inhabitants. The war order included :-

Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories:
Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously.
Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.
The villages which are emptied in the manner described above must be included in the fixed defensive system and must be fortified as necessary.
In the absence of resistance, garrison troops will enter the village and take up positions in it or in locations which enable complete tactical control. The officer in command of the unit will confiscate all weapons, wireless devices, and motor vehicles in the village. In addition, he will detain all politically suspect individuals. After consultation with the [Jewish] political authorities, bodies will be appointed consisting of people from the village to administer the internal affairs of the village. In every region, a [Jewish] person will be appointed to be responsible for arranging the political and administrative affairs of all [Arab] villages and population centers which are occupied within that region.

http://www.1948.org.uk/storage/public-files/Plan%20Dalet%20Revisited.pdf

Yet this offensive exceeded its targets when the Zionists attacked & occupied Jaffa & Acre towns that were parts of the Arab state iaccoridng to UGA 181.
The Zionists forces were far stronger & modernly armed than the poorly equipped / organized Palestinians. The defeats , humiliation & atrocities which the Palestinians were subjected to, provoked the neighboring Arab states to intervene.

Even with the Arab armies intervention , the numeric & armor superiority was always possessed by the Zionists during the whole 1948 war.

I've showed numerous times that the local arabic leaders (Palestinian), chosed to leave in most cases, because of the promise they got from the arabic legion leaders.

This is half of the truth. The major Palestinians exodus was executed by the zionists

Benny Morris, in the month ahead the new version of your book on the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem is due to be published. Who will be less pleased with the book - the Israelis or the Palestinians?

"The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

"At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on the other hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself."

http://web.archive.org/web/20080515210330/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380986&contrassID=2

850000 Palestinians were expelled by the Zionists in 1948.

Please do provide facts or links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#morris_birth_revisited

[Wrath_014]

I am speaking about the 1948 Naqba. A part of the 1947/1948 Iraeli-Arab war. What are you on with 68 years? There was no IDF. There was the Haganah, Irgun and the Lehi.

I sugget YOU read some history. I posted you a link. Please do me the courtesy of readiing it.

Ok. I'll explain it to you :

First, 68 years is the number of years since 1880 (First Aliya) to 1948 (Declaration of Idepedence), were Jews enterd Israel.
It was a response to your "speedy entry".

Secondly, The Naqba (Al Naqba or Hanekba) is about the creation of Israel, it's not part of anything.

Third, the IDF was established in 1948.

Romans integrated their conquered populations, left them their lands, customs, religions and a way to make a living.

First, Do you know how Christianity spread? By the Romans of course........

Secondly, they "integrated" by oppression.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-slavery.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... man_Empire
http://www.awesomestories.com/movies/pa ... st_ch2.htm

Unlike the Israelis whd destroyed the Palestinian homes and towns, killed off those they couldn't drive off and refused to allow any right of return even to this day.

Theft pure and simple.

Yes.. Those rogues Israelis.....

See, I don't know where you getting your info, but you need to double check it, cause it's pretty much off..

Not correct. The clashes started after UNGA 181 decision that was processed , facilitated & enforced by the US / Other colonial power to impose undeserved legitimacy on the Zionist project.

Zionist project...

The far stronger Zionist Gangs ( Haganah, Palmakh, Irgun & Lehi) launched aerial attacks on the Palestinian inhabitants between Novemebr 1947 till the End of March 1948.
On the 30th of March, the Haganah started the execution of Plan D whose targets were to occupy the UNGA 181 decision nominated Jewish state lands & to evacuate these from its Palestinian inhabitants. The war order included :-

Areial attacks??? with what?

The first Chezch Messerschmitt planes were brought to Israel only at the end of MAY 1948. So how could they performed an areial attacks till the end of MARCH???

The Zionists forces were far stronger & modernly armed than the poorly equipped / organized Palestinians. The defeats , humiliation & atrocities which the Palestinians were subjected to, provoked the neighboring Arab states to intervene.

Even with the Arab armies intervention , the numeric & armor superiority was always possessed by the Zionists during the whole 1948 war.

The IDF was poorly eqiuped, not to mention, that a lot of Holocaust survivors that only got to Israel participated in combat.

Please stop with the "Oh how poor...." behaviour. I'm not talking about those three masscares preformed by them during Brittish mandate. So please.

Both sides (Palestinian and Israelis) were poorly equiped, thing is, Israelis feard that the arab legion would wiped them out, so they fought hard as they could.

"provoked the neighboring Arab states to intervene."

Stick to real facts. They intervened because they thought they could win easly. They were wrong and therefore lost.
Plus they did it not to help the Palestinians but to annihilate Israel.

"Even with the Arab armies intervention , the numeric & armor superiority was always possessed by the Zionists during the whole 1948 war."

Why you lie?

Are you that brain washed?

This is the real numbers (15 May 1948 - Wikipedia) :

Israel -------------------------------------------------- Arab Legion
Tanks : 13 ----------------------------------------------- 52
Armored vehicles (With cannon) : 2 ------------------ 200
Armored vehicles (Without cannon) : 120------------- 300
Artillery : 5--------------------------------------------- 140
AT & AA : 24------------------------------------------- 220


Overall : Israel 164 -------------------- Arab Legion 912
Yeah I see how the IDF "dominated" with armour.....

This is half of the truth. The major Palestinians exodus was executed by the zionists

I wrote about it already several times. The majority left because of the Mofti's order.

"The most potent factor [in the flight of Palestinians] was the announcements made over the air by
the Arab-Palestinian Higher Executive, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit... It was clearly intimated that
Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
-- London Economist October 2, 1948

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their
homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
-- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with
their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and
interests will be safe."
-- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, (quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz).

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they
were threatened by the progress of war."
-- General John Glubb "Pasha," The London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948

Sir John Troutbeck, British Middle East Office in Cairo, noted in cables to superiors (1948-49) that
the refugees (in Gaza) have no bitterness against Jews, but harbor intense hatred toward Egyptians:
"They say 'we know who our enemies are (referring to the Egyptians)', declaring that their Arab
brethren persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes…I even heard it said that many of the
refugees would give a welcome to the Israelis if they were to come in and take the district over."

"The Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in
order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help
these refugees."
-- The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, February 19, 1949.

"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of
Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
-- The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, October 12, 1963

"The Arab Exodus …was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread
by the Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews. …For the flight and fall of the other villages it is
our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish
crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of
Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the
Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
-- The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.

[pugsville]

I dont know where to start with so many claims that are just factually wrong.

This for now.

Can you please provide the to Wikipedia link for

This is the real numbers (15 May 1948 - Wikipedia) :

Israel -------------------------------------------------- Arab Legion
Tanks : 13 ----------------------------------------------- 52
Armored vehicles (With cannon) : 2 ------------------ 200
Armored vehicles (Without cannon) : 120------------- 300
Artillery : 5--------------------------------------------- 140
AT & AA : 24------------------------------------------- 220


I dont accept this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab% ... sraeli_War

"Jordan's Arab Legion was considered the most effective Arab force. Armed, trained and commanded by British officers, this 8,000–12,000 strong force was organised in four infantry/mechanised regiments supported by some 40 artillery pieces and 75 armoured cars"

[Wrath_014]

I dont know where to start with so many claims that are just factually wrong.

This for now.

Can you please provide the to Wikipedia link for

This is the real numbers (15 May 1948 - Wikipedia) :

Israel -------------------------------------------------- Arab Legion
Tanks : 13 ----------------------------------------------- 52
Armored vehicles (With cannon) : 2 ------------------ 200
Armored vehicles (Without cannon) : 120------------- 300
Artillery : 5--------------------------------------------- 140
AT & AA : 24------------------------------------------- 220


I dont accept this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab% ... sraeli_War

"Jordan's Arab Legion was considered the most effective Arab force. Armed, trained and commanded by British officers, this 8,000–12,000 strong force was organised in four infantry/mechanised regiments supported by some 40 artillery pieces and 75 armoured cars"

The link is to HEB Wikipedia, if you want (Plus it's from another source too) :
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7% ... 7%95%D7%AA

http://www.google.co.il/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... http%3A%2F%
2Fhumanities.tau.ac.il%2Fzionism%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FIsrael20_BarOn.pdf&ei=gxCFUeDoK8rAtAb07oCABg&usg=AFQjCNESOWgqnWYk1Jqjvn46L_FADA_FjQ&bvm=bv.45960087,d.Yms

"I dont know where to start with so many claims that are just factually wrong."
Everything I wrote is based on facts. I don't usually go and write things on thin air....

If you choose not to accept thats fair by me, But don't say it's wrong. I've spent at least hour or so on this little post, to bring as much as info as I could. Plus, the numbers are pretty much accurate, mainly because, at the start of the war against the Arab Legion in 16 MAY 1948 the IDF was poorly equipped mainly because it was just established and mostly becasue it was formed by ecelictic Jewish organizations.

"Jordan's Arab Legion was considered the most effective Arab force. Armed, trained and commanded by British officers, this 8,000–12,000 strong force was organised in four infantry/mechanised regiments supported by some 40 artillery pieces and 75 armoured cars"

It doesn't contradicts anything I've posted. Arab legion was mainly : Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and some volunteers from : Saudi Arabia, Yaman, Pakistan, Sudan and etc... Don't forget that there were also : Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army as well.

Initially, the Haganah had no heavy machine guns, artillery, armored vehicles, anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons,[72] nor military aircraft or tanks.[69]

[redcarpet]

Most of them are just arab immigrants from Egypt
Syria Jordan and even some from saudi arabia (mostly the
bedouins in the negev)

That claim has bee proven fraudulent. From Time Immemorial
the latest attempt to prove it & proven fraudulent. Stop peddling trash.

[Dormin]

Always amusing to see the pro israelis trying to victimise themselves, claiming the nakba never happend, or that we were at a disadvantage against the arab armies back in 1948.

Then again, it's also amusing to see the pro-palestinians blowing the entire affair out of propertions, comparing it to the holocoust out of all things.

You keep standing on your sides and claiming yourselves to be saints and all, always a good chuckle.