[benpenguin]

I haven't been closely following Israel and Palestine, despite hearing a lot of the same stuff:
Hamas firing rockets of freedom, Israel goes humanitarian bombing after dropping humanitarian leaflets, Palestine gets blockaded in the west bank with no rights, Israeli settles more Palestinian lands.

But this same question contines to evade me. What's wrong with them two seperating each with their own state? Who is opposing it, and why? Can anybody give me some pointers?

[redcarpet]

Well when it comes to the Pal. refugee problem, there are millions. If the Right of Return is totally implemented, Arabs would outnumber Jews in what is now Israel. And most are Muslim, therefore at least a lite-theocracy would be established. And in Islam non-Muslims are second-class citizens.

Israel would no longer be a democratic, secular republic. And Jews that moved to Israel, partly to be non-discriminated against in Europe, or elsewhere, would find they're being suppressed again.

Plus there's no guarantee that Israeli Jews would even be allowed to stay in Israel, not even those born in it. There is the possibility of total expulsion or genocide. Depending on which Palestinian you ask.

Arafat made a major concession on the issue in 2000; only 10% will return. I'm sure Israel can handle a few hundred thousand or so new Arab citizens.

[benpenguin]

Oh it appears I know about the problem even less than I thought I thought the two state solution means the independence of the West bank / Gaza and Palestine can do whatever they want in that piece of land, theocracy or whatnot, and then the two race will live mostly seperated. They can probably still accept citizenship from each other for people who are already living in their respective countries long enough.

Is it that Palestine is claiming the current Israeli land mass as a whole? I am a little confused here. What does that have to do with the right to return?

[pugsville]

The Breakdown is mainly on the Israeli side breaks down into two objections (1) Trust a lot ofIsraelis dot trust the Palestinians, and a failed Palestinian State as neighbour and possible terrorist haven. (2) some Israelis desire at least partial large scale annexations of the west bank (some favour complete). The way Israeli politics works just isnt going to deliver a brave leader, the cobbled together coalitions of very diverse groups means the government falls or just one or a number of parties breaks with it. So in order to function Governments must pander to very small groups, which means the Religious Parties and settlers get much more power than there numbers would suggest.

The Right of Return is mostly a red herring. Israel wants the PA to renounce it now, before talks without any quid pro quo. The PA know that no large scale right of return will ever be acceptable to Israel. It's an Ambit emotional claim. The PA is willing to trade it but not willingly to give it up for nothing. It's one of a number of Palestinian bogey men that get raised. Like accepting Israel as a Jewish state. Meaningless distractions from the main game.

The Governments of Israeli have mainly been of the right mainly supportive of more settlements in the west bank. The Increasing Israeli settlements have just chopped the legs out from under Palestinian moderates and the PA.

For the PA and the Two state solution to work, much more had to be done a long time ago, much more of the west bank had to turned over to the PA, settlements frozen and a chance of the PA to build an economy to show the Palestinians the benefits of peace and co-operation. Instead the various Israeli governments have massive supported massive expansion of the settlements and undermined and made the PA ineffective (the PA has a whole host of it's own problems, trying to build a state and has made more of it's own making)

Now what is the Role of the PA if the Two State Solution is off the table and west bank settlements continue to expand? Administer a ever shrinking collection of self managed refugee camps and collaborate with Israeli authorities to get a slightly better life for the Palestinian population? When any dissent of failure to carry out the occupier's wish means customs revenue will be withheld? Really how can anyone respect the PA if that is their role?

I just don't see anything getting better.

[redcarpet]

Oh it appears I know about the problem even less than I thought I thought the two state solution means the independence of the West bank / Gaza and Palestine can do whatever they want in that piece of land, theocracy or whatnot, and then the two race will live mostly seperated. They can probably still accept citizenship from each other for people who are already living in their respective countries long enough.

Is it that Palestine is claiming the current Israeli land mass as a whole? I am a little confused here. What does that have to do with the right to return?

The two-state solution includes resolving the Palestinian Refugee Problem, produced by ethnic cleansing in 1947-48. Atm they're living in refugee camps in Arab states & Gaza.

If more than just a portion of the total population moves to the State of Israel, then it won't be a Jewish-majority state, nor likely to be secular or democratic.

[benpenguin]

Thanks for clearing that up for me

[wat0n]

Arafat made a major concession on the issue in 2000; only 10% will return. I'm sure Israel can handle a few hundred thousand or so new Arab citizens.

What, really? According to whom?

And seriously pugsville, do you think Hamas would recognize Israel if it withdrew from the West Bank? Like it or not, there are also many Palestinians who oppose a two-state solution - a minority perhaps, but it's a minority that has more guns than the majority as past experience (that of Hamas members throwing Fatah members from rooftops in Gaza back in 2007) suggests. The lack of trust by Israelis does not arise from nowhere, even if this lack of trust on the other's intentions is mutual as opinion polls systematically show (this is perhaps one of the only things that invariably holds in those surveys).

[pugsville]

Did I say the lack of trust by the Israelis was without foundation? Yes Israelis have serious valid security concerns,

But settlement of the west Bank is nothing to do with security. If the Israelis had made reasonable moves the PA would be more in position to do something, but the on going active support for the settlers by Israeli governments have basically cut the PA off at the knees. They should have handed over more of the west bank, given the PA a chance to build a economy shown that there are rewards for working with the Israelis.The Peace process has been a sham whereby Israel avoids responsibility and costs of the occupation while to allows settlers to expand and further the dispossession of Palestinians.

[oscar]

There either has to be a two state solution or Israel has to be labelled an Apartheid state with no citizenship rights for the West bank muslim Semite population. At some point, there will be pubic pressure to deal with the Israeli Apartheid state as the world dealt with South Africa through sanctions. If Israel truly wants peace, they will have to give up land, including East Jerusalem.

In the absence of a two state solution, the Palestinian leadership needs to change tactics and start a campaign for Israeli citizenship, including voting rights, for all West Bank inhabitants. This would be unacceptable for a "Jewish democracy" for demographic reasons.

As for "Right of Return", it is not going happen nor should it. Generations of "refugees" living in bordering states have already adjusted to their new environments. Implementing the "Right of Return" would just result in another unnecessary displacement of whole populations.

[wat0n]

Did I say the lack of trust by the Israelis was without foundation? Yes Israelis have serious valid security concerns,

The Breakdown is mainly on the Israeli side breaks down into two objections (1) Trust a lot ofIsraelis dot trust the Palestinians, and a failed Palestinian State as neighbour and possible terrorist haven. (2) some Israelis desire at least partial large scale annexations of the west bank (some favour complete). The way Israeli politics works just isnt going to deliver a brave leader, the cobbled together coalitions of very diverse groups means the government falls or just one or a number of parties breaks with it. So in order to function Governments must pander to very small groups, which means the Religious Parties and settlers get much more power than there numbers would suggest.

But settlement of the west Bank is nothing to do with security. If the Israelis had made reasonable moves the PA would be more in position to do something, but the on going active support for the settlers by Israeli governments have basically cut the PA off at the knees. They should have handed over more of the west bank, given the PA a chance to build a economy shown that there are rewards for working with the Israelis.

Indeed, I agree with this.

The Peace process has been a sham whereby Israel avoids responsibility and costs of the occupation while to allows settlers to expand and further the dispossession of Palestinians.

I don't really think so. There was a real effort to get to a deal, yet both sides couldn't reach an agreement.

I think that, while the peace process should not be stopped altogether, it would probably be wise for both sides to 1) continue it with a lower profile and expectations, and 2) start building up the conditions for a 2 state solution to happen de facto. Israel could do a lot on the second front with regards to the West Bank, but the Palestinians will either have to sort their own divisions out or simply accept that the West Bank and Gaza will be separate entities - the Israelis could change course quite easily in this direction (especially if a narrow right-wing government is seen as a failure - since 2009 Netanyahu always made sure to include people from the center-left into his coalition, this isn't an option now) but I don't see how the Palestinians will sort their own divisions out as in the end of the day they don't only deal with their relations to Israel but also with the character of any sort of Palestinian state (a problem that is not so different from that being faced throughout the Arab world right now). Since Israel actually has an interest in having a peaceful Palestinian state as a neighbor in the long run, it would probably be better if the Israelis just acted on their own to make a 2 state reality possible, yet that won't happen under this government, unfortunately.

[blackjack21]

The Arabs aren't cohesive either. Gaza is really the old Philistine people like a lot of Lebanese are Phonecian. The Druze, Christians, etc. are different.

[redcarpet]

What, really? According to whom?

Shlomo Ben Ami, in his book

Sons of War, Wounds of Peace

. I've posted the quote before

[wat0n]

Shlomo Ben Ami, in his book

I've posted the quote before

Why is it that no one else involved in the talks seems to be in agreement with him?

[anarchist23]

And all this time the Israelis have lied. They don't want a two state solution. The U.S. gives the Isralis aid, Obama should give this aid to the poor in the US. Obama has two years to isolate this racist Israel.
So if Israelis are not interested in a two state solution bring on the deadly attacks on the Israeli occupiers. Israel deserves to be hit hard, as they are the occupiers.

Quote:

Duh. Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. They've just been conning the world by paying lip service to the idea in order to keep the USA and Europe on their "side" while bulldozing Palestinians to create more and more illegal settlements on stolen land. Now the bare truth is becoming unavoidable at last. The Israeli government (which is not the same as Jewish people!) are fascist racists who really want a "pure" Jewish state with no "dirty" Arabs left. And no, I'm not anti-semitic, in fact I am Jewish and many of my relatives were killed in Nazi concentration camps and in the Resistance. It's finally time for the world to wake up the the reality that this is not a nice, democratic cuddly-bunny of a state, but an extremist regime with illegal, undeclared weapons of mass destruction, determined on ethnic cleansing, who should face the most severe condemnation and sanctions.

[danholo]

Israelis are interested in a two state solution that guarantees genuine peace, but that doesn't seem to be a realistic outcome. Your rhetoric will only embolden this position. Warmongering and racism have been your usual line here, so this comes as no surprise.

Israelis were right to choose against capitulating to antisemites.

[anarchist23]

The US gives 5billion dollars every year for military equiptment to murder Palestinians,starve them and steal their land.
The money would be better spent in the US on the needy rather to the racist/ fascist Israeli government.

[annatar1914]

Israelis are interested in a two state solution that guarantees genuine peace, but that doesn't seem to be a realistic outcome. Your rhetoric will only embolden this position. Warmongering and racism have been your usual line here, so this comes as no surprise.

Israelis were right to choose against capitulating to antisemites.

At some point, the Jews will have to chose between their Nationalism, their very identity and existence as a people, and democracy, which actually is destroying them and does not work at all anywhere.

I believe that the Jews will chose Nationalism.

As for a 'two-state' solution, it is simply impossible, as 'Palestine' would only be a staging area for further attacks on the remainder of Israel, until it too was gobbled up. 'Salami tactics', if you will. I don't think Jews are that stupid.

[layman]

So if Israelis are not interested in a two state solution bring on the deadly attacks on the Israeli occupiers. Israel deserves to be hit hard, as they are the occupiers.

This is what the Palestinians have been doing since forever. Moves towards peace are very recent so all you are saying is they should return to the Arafat years. Maybe just get behind hamas for a new spin on an old trick?

Problem is they stand no chance in a military conflict so your advice will just get more of them killed.

[danholo]

The US gives 5billion dollars every year for military equiptment to murder Palestinians,starve them and steal their land.
The money would be better spent in the US on the needy rather to the racist/ fascist Israeli government.

If that were the case, sure, but the reality does not fit your narrative. Why do you accuse others of lying when you do so yourself?

[anarchist23]

This is what the Palestinians have been doing since forever. Moves towards peace are very recent so all you are saying is they should return to the Arafat years. Maybe just get behind hamas for a new spin on an old trick?
Problem is they stand no chance in a military conflict so your advice will just get more of them killed.

The Israelis are the terrorists? The 4th biggest army in the world dropping thousands of tons bombs on a totally imprisoned population in Gaza. The Palestinian fighters are freedom fighters and the Palistinians have a right to resist under international law.