[danholo]

Palestinian freedom fighters are antisemitic racist scum, something you claim to oppose. By defending them and claim you are an anarchist makes you a complete fraud.

[anarchist23]

And you say Israel does not get aid from the U.S.

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

[danholo]

And you say Israel does not get aid from Israel?

Israel receives military aid from the US, sure, but what's your point? It doesn't make your support of antisemitic fascists any less true and your anarchist moniker any less fraudulent. Even if Israel did not receive military support, it would continue its fight against these very true foes whose banners you wave.

[anarchist23]

And you are a defender of state terrorism. The freedom fighters of Gaza are heroes fighting the occupying forces.

[danholo]

You're a damned straight I am a defender of 'state terror' - Israel's enemies should feel and encounter terror wherever they set foot. These heroes you laud are nothing but antisemitic scum and self-proclaimed fascists who want to see Israel destroyed and deserve nothing less themselves.

I don't understand how you can view these people as 'freedom fighters' and wave an anarchist banner at the same time. It's a complete oxymoron.

[anarchist23]

The future leader of Israel is a liar, racist and bigot. What does that make the Israeli electorate? Supporters of apartied, murder and war crimes. Shame on you all. The truth is out for the whole world to see...Israel does not want peace.

[layman]

That picture is weird.

Is it claiming those things are all lies

Of course Hamas is smuggling weapons into Gazza. It is well known that any aid money they do get is funneled into such things. They also openly say they dont want peace. They wouldnt even agree to ceasfire in last war.

Israel may "lying" but they say they want peace.

[LehmanB]

Well few reasons why I support one state:


There are two lakes in the map- big and small, and a river between- which is the border with Israel and Jordan.
Tel Aviv is in the shore. Jerusalem is in the mountains inside (you can see the green line which serround the "WB" that was released in 67.

Now there are many Arabs in those mountains. Why won't we get rid of that and live peacefuly in the green shore close to the sea? Well, apperently it is problematic. Those mountains are completely mingle geographicaly with the other parts- water, sewer, transportation- the "WB" is somewhere in the center of Israel. So despite the plenty of Arabs there, it is almost impossible just to slice it from the other lands around.

Strangely, settling increased Jewish birthrate. So i'm not sure we should obsessively focus at slicing areas with Arabs.

Historicaly Judea was in those mountins: Jerusalem, Hebron, BethLehem, the dead sea. It brings a spirit to our religious (who make children).
And the settling strength Jerusalem, which is inside those mountains and the capital of Israel and the reasons Jews are here. Without the WB Jerusalem will be isolated and serrounded, with one road to Tel Aviv in the shore. See, its problematic.

How the process of giving autonomy to the Arabs in those mountains in the center (West Bank) evolved: Israel brought dozens of thousands of terrorists organization (Arafat its leader) back to Israel (He was in Lebanon and Tunisia), and gave him control on the Arabs. This is the PLO, the Palestinian authority now. Quickly this organization incited the people, with Nazi education, and launched a harsh terror on Israel in few years (2000-2003). In 2003- Israel re occupied the Palestinian autonomy, but still they have internal independency. And Israel have serrounded it in wall or fences. In 2005 Israel evacuated Jews from Gaza, what created there a vaccum which was exploited by Islamists like ISIS, which ever since firing rockets indeed to Israel. Israel is suffocating Gaza, so things are under control- but for how long can it last- we all know it is not a solution, just a temporary bad tool. This Hamas in Gaza declares it will build an army to destroy Israel completely when having a free port.

The point I see is neglecting complete control over parts which are inside you, will leave them to international Islamists powers to interfere the Arabs, and soon to a total war or harsh terror. I will be the one to pay the resaults, not you. I don't want 48 again. People here say it is moral to let ultimate freedom, and than if there is a clash we will enter and have legetimacy to have a serious war if needed. I don't want that serious war nor I believe to the legetimacy crap. I saw in these 20 years of Palestinian autonomy experiement that they were not independed- instead of Israel, Saudia Qatar and Iran have entered and played local politics, and used the Paelstinians as tools to fight Israel.

Also, the two states process have led to half a million of Arabs to enter Israel. from Jordan. Thats demographicaly bad for me. in 2000-2003 10% of the Palestinians left to Jordan though. But still..

Anyway, I don't believe such a small land could split into several states, especialy in this harsh area. The Arabs are Arabs, and feel part of global Arab processes. Not all Arabs can be independed- I did capture a territory that could potentialy be an Arab territory, but instead its Jewish. And trying to limit me to the minimum, to one city, sin't ging to work. Israel is very small anyhow. Over time, Israel is shaping its form, and whats shaping it is stability, demography and wars or quiet. For instance Syria shoot over the north of Israel from the Golan heights daily. And since 1967 it seased. We have quiet. So thats a relatevely stability. Slowly we will see what is formed, but since 1948 didn't bring peace- its not the final borders.

Arabs in Israel have to be a minority. Independency they should seek somewhere else. As to the Arabs in the autonomy- it is a strange thing. But over time we will see what status will be. Again, like Gaza, this is not an ultimate status. They either be at war and expeled or annexed completely over time, or in this strange situation having autonomy regulated by Israel which is odd but for now I don't see a better option unless striving toward a clash.

[layman]

I would have been so much more simple if Egypt had accepted gazza in the peace deal back in the 70's.

And jordon had kept the west bank. ....

Israel keeps its capital and pays reperations to displaced familys (along with the UN).

This is the only realistic solution in my view. Its either that of Israel just annexes the west bank and keep gazza on a close leash.

[LehmanB]

You 're right about that point of stable countries to control areas. But.. why didn't it work either earlier times? I don't want a great Arab country on my window (live in west Jerusalem) as I don't want ISIS / PLO. I think that this land needs one head. In 1948 when 7 Arab countries invaded this territories- Egypt bited Gaza and Jordan invaded and occupied whats called the WB. These two states should have involved. Indeed the Arabs are Arabs and prefer to live in Jordan or Egypt than under a foreign regime of different religions and nationality, I agree. But still- Egypt is scarry and there is a good reason they cant cross their army betond Suetz canal, a resault of many wars they've launched. Israel is still young, it didn't finish to form in one war (48) apperently. And the Arab region here is changing too. In 2008 I wrote here that many states here has a minority regime that might collapse- well these states are having artifitial Brit straight borders etc- so there might be a huge empire of Arabs - which in this case should be far from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Or there could be different states or regimes. Israel needs valid borders in any case of these.

[layman]

You 're right about that point of stable countries to control areas. But.. why didn't it work either earlier times?

Things have changed a huge amount in Arab countrys since those early days. Egypt now is no threat and its military is limited by its reliance on US weaponry. Gazza to egypt would be the safest thing for Israel IMO.

I don't want a great Arab country on my window (live in west Jerusalem) as I don't want ISIS / PLO. I think that this land needs one head.

As I said before, arabs need to accept jerusalem is Israeli now.

But still- Egypt is scarry and there is a good reason they cant cross their army betond Suetz canal, a resault of many wars they've launched.

As above, I dont agree on this anymore. Egyptian military is totally behind peace with Israel and backed by the US. The only theoretical threat is a more extreme version of Morsi but this isnt going to happen. The brotherhood has been smashed.

So even if another Morsi turned up he would need to defeat the all powerful egyptian army first. This would give you plenty of time to prepare.

this case should be far from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Or there could be different states or regimes. Israel needs valid borders in any case of these.

I think my idea is valid borders. Cash/reparations to family could make up for any land swaps in the west bank.

[LehmanB]

Well now Egypt is okay. But in 30 years? Do i want Egyptian tanks in Gaza? No...

Your solution is more valid than a palestinian state. Thats for sure. But it has also problems. Thats all I say.

[Rich]

As I said before, arabs need to accept jerusalem is Israeli now.

Do they? Maybe the current strategy is working. Maybe slow inch by slow inch Israel is losing. Maybe slowly inch by slow inch Israel is being de-legitimised. Yes even in the United States. Maybe Israel faces a future like Apartheid South Africa. Note I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of this, just my perception of what is happening.

Palestinian / Arab / Muslim patriots are engaging in a strategy of what's called delayed gratification. They get less in the short term, but in the end they may get the lot.

[layman]

Well now Egypt is okay. But in 30 years? Do i want Egyptian tanks in Gaza? No...

They would be safer given to the egyptians rather than either independence or annexation. What other choice is there?

Noone knows what will happen anywhere in 30 years. As I said, if things change you have plenty of chance to react faster than they can. That is all you can hope and plan for.

o they? Maybe the current strategy is working. Maybe slow inch by slow inch Israel is losing. Maybe slowly inch by slow inch Israel is being de-legitimised. Yes even in the United States. Maybe Israel faces a future like Apartheid South Africa. Note I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of this, just my perception of what is happening.

Palestinian / Arab / Muslim patriots are engaging in a strategy of what's called delayed gratification. They get less in the short term, but in the end they may get the lot.

The long game is hard to judge. Do you doubt Israel is safer now than at any time in the past? How many die each weak from arab attacks these days?

You need to keep alert but there is no absolute security. Nukes and a vastly superior army is working. Your hawkish politics achieve nothing though because you are neither kicking anyone out of seeking a two state solution.

[LehmanB]

That is safer than independed weak local Arabs that will be captured by ISIS or Saudia. But it is even better if they are controled by me, someway or the other. Which is what happening +-. In the long run I can trust my control and not other's.

[layman]

Both ISIS and saudi are no threat to Israel. In the grand scale of things they only weaken true threats like Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

It may seem counter intuitive but that is the reality in my view. Think about it. Rampaging crazy jihadis are very dangerous to certain places but not to Israel. The IDF would slaughter them easily and infiltrating Israel is about as hard as the US these days.

If they did manage to build some half arsed caliphate it would be incredibly backwards. A modern invasion of Israel would require a modern state. Something both wahhabists and ISIS loons are unwilling and incapable of doing.

[Pisa]

What two-state solution?

Wrong enough for you?

[annatar1914]

You 're right about that point of stable countries to control areas. But.. why didn't it work either earlier times? I don't want a great Arab country on my window (live in west Jerusalem) as I don't want ISIS / PLO. I think that this land needs one head. In 1948 when 7 Arab countries invaded this territories- Egypt bited Gaza and Jordan invaded and occupied whats called the WB. These two states should have involved. Indeed the Arabs are Arabs and prefer to live in Jordan or Egypt than under a foreign regime of different religions and nationality, I agree. But still- Egypt is scarry and there is a good reason they cant cross their army betond Suetz canal, a resault of many wars they've launched. Israel is still young, it didn't finish to form in one war (48) apperently. And the Arab region here is changing too. In 2008 I wrote here that many states here has a minority regime that might collapse- well these states are having artifitial Brit straight borders etc- so there might be a huge empire of Arabs - which in this case should be far from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Or there could be different states or regimes. Israel needs valid borders in any case of these.

If I were a Zionist, which I am not, not a Jewish Nationalist, I would reasonably expect everything from the Litani in the north, Jordan river to the east, and the Negev and the Sinai to el-Arish. I'd even go further and say that Jordan should be part of Israel too.

If I were a Zionist.

I'd also say that if I were a Zionist, I would reasonably expect in the interests of peace, the expulsion of all the Non-Jews, except the Arameans/Christians, Druze, and Bedawi tribes, from the area I previously laid out.

I am not a Zionist, but I do fully expect that this scenario is what will eventually play out. But, all the surrounding states in the region would have to be broken apart, and probably all the major Gentile Empires worldwide too, to make the chances of success as optimal as possible.

[LehmanB]

Sadly anatar, most people in Israel accept Sinay to be part of Egypt. Which I personaly would be happy to see as Israeli part indeed. Not from global justice- its just because I want a normal independed state. This is my interest, not theirs. I know every country wishes to expend- Egypt tried to take Gaza, and Sinai (which is not exactly an Egyptian soil).. Russia wants Cremea.. And I want Sinai. But if you were asking average ISraeli they would think you were complete loony for wanting it. They think that living in extreme narrow shore is perfect and valid forever here. The rightiest may wish also the west bank that serround this shore, but thats all. Menahem Begin was stupid. And Saadat was brilliant- I can't understand Egyptians who oppose Saadat. How idiots full of hatred are they, that they don't see through Egyptian interest, do they hate me that much?

[ArtAllm]

The US gives 5billion dollars every year for military equiptment to murder Palestinians,starve them and steal their land.
The money would be better spent in the US on the needy rather to the racist/ fascist Israeli government.

So why does American government not act in the interests of Americans?
Are American politicians just puppets of Zionists?