[layman]

So what? So maybe you guys should stop pretending you acted out of some moral imperative as opposed to simply realpolitik?

I have literally never heard a british person claim that.

If Israel arose it was a byproduct (and it's not even clear if it was a desired one), rather than as a goal of British policy.

Bollocks. It was clearly british policy both on paper and in practice. Just because we put “limits” on it doesn’t mean it was abandoned. It was abandoned when the French started funding jewish terrorists.

Brits did nothing just stood there and watched how Arabs and Jews kill each other

1 – you would never have made it to that land without us – this is a fact
2 – even if you had you would have been wiped out in the 20’s and 30’s by angry arabs without our army to kill them all for you. - note we didnt stand by but saved your ungrateful asses.

Don’t want thanks. You owe your existence to us though. Not some made up god or jewish exceptionalism. It doesnt suprise me that none of you admit that though because your people are arrogant, defensive and selfish.

[wat0n]

I have literally never heard a british person claim that.

Then do not demand gratitude for advancing your own interests.

Bollocks. It was clearly british policy both on paper and in practice. Just because we put “limits” on it doesn’t mean it was abandoned. It was abandoned when the French started funding jewish terrorists.

No, it was not? The UK was careful to say that it supporting setting a Jewish National Home, not a Jewish state in the Mandatory territory specifically. Partition was not guaranteed and, indeed, the proposals in the Peel commission to that effect were rolled back as soon as the Arabs protested them.

1 – you would never have made it to that land without us – this is a fact
2 – even if you had you would have been wiped out in the 20’s and 30’s by angry arabs without our army to kill them all for you. - note we didnt stand by but saved your ungrateful asses.

Don’t want thanks. You owe your existence to us though. Not some made up god or jewish exceptionalism. It doesnt suprise me that none of you admit that though because your people are arrogant, defensive and selfish.

1) is true, though it was not done out of mercy in the slightest. It was part of advancing your own interests.

2) is false, indeed, the UK basically watched just that happening in places like Hebron and only decided to seriously intervene when the Arabs were stupid enough to start targeting British forces.

[Rich]

To be fair the reason for the Balfour declaration was that its proponents believed that international Jewry could deliver victory in World War I. Things were hardly going swimmingly for the allies at the time. Lets face it unless you believed that international Jewry wielded immense behind the scenes power, the Balfour declaration was a very odd way to defeat the Ottoman Empire. Now in as much as International Jewry meant anything, in as much as it had any kind of will, in as much as it was a meaningful entity, it would seem that International Jewry delivered on its side of the bargain.

Many Zionists in the 1930s felt that Britain was not delivering on its side of the deal.

[skinster]

They do have rights, they're set out in the Fourth Geneva Convention. Civilians have less rights than usual when under foreigner military occupation and there are reasons for that. Everyone knows that.

Palestinians have no rights in Gaza (where they're basically imprisoned), few in the West Bank (where they live under checkpoints and permits) and the 20% of Palestinians living inside of Israel live as second-class citizens i.e. they have 50+ laws discriminating against them solely because they aren't Jewish, because Israel is an ethnocracy, lest we forget.

Countries who occupy people have a duty (according to the Geneva Convention that you mention) to protect those people they occupy and do not allow for things like collective punishment, hostage-taking, confiscating property, transferring populations and a bunch of other things that Israel violates regularly.

No, it does not. The link doesn't claim it is an usual activity in the Ben Gurion airport, indeed, it makes it seem like it is a rather unusual occurrence which is why it is featured on press.

Cook's article stated Israeli travelers are given propaganda brochures to make Israel appear pretty to foreigners and Yesh Atid have a booklet doing just that, promoted by the leader of the party. It doesn't matter if it's a "usual activity" or not, it is happening, so your claim that Cook lied about that is basically wrong. That's all I'm saying. On a related note, the hasbara brochure is pretty amusing considering it attempts to portray the BDS movement as antisemitic.

Oh but it is a publicity stunt, one meant for internal consumption mostly.

Who cares about that, the fact is, Cook wrote about this happening and you denied it, calling him a liar, and I've just shown you how it does happen, by non other than an Israeli politician. Whether it's a publicity stunt or not doesn't matter because my point is, is that it is happening. You denied it was happening because you went to Israel a few years ago and didn't experience it, despite the journalist making the claim a few months ago and me now showing you evidence of it....happening.

As I said, the BDS movement essentially gives a lifeline for politicians who want to get votes for fighting boycotts against Israel, even if there is no realistic prospect of one.

BDS news:

More than 200 South African scholars back academic boycott of Israel

Doug Henwood Refuses To Sell Translation Rights to Israel

Why did Brookings Institution hold a secret panel countering BDS?

[wat0n]

[
Cook's article stated Israeli travelers are given propaganda brochures to make Israel appear pretty to foreigners and Yesh Atid have a booklet doing just that, promoted by the leader of the party. It doesn't matter if it's a "usual activity" or not, it is happening, so your claim that Cook lied about that is basically wrong. That's all I'm saying. On a related note, the hasbara brochure is pretty amusing considering it attempts to portray the BDS movement as antisemitic.

Cook didn't provide evidence that it happened at the time he wrote his opinion piece, and of course it matters whether it is an usual occurrence or not. Indeed, whining about a publicity stunt doesn't convince anyone.

Who cares about that, the fact is, Cook wrote about this happening and you denied it, calling him a liar, and I've just shown you how it does happen, by non other than an Israeli politician. Whether it's a publicity stunt or not doesn't matter because my point is, is that it is happening. You denied it was happening because you went to Israel a few years ago and didn't experience it, despite the journalist making the claim a few months ago and me now showing you evidence of it....happening.

It may as well be happening because someone from Yesh Atid read Cook's article and thought it would be a good publicity stunt to get votes.

In short, there is nothing to back these claims up. Indeed, as I mentioned in that thread, neither I nor relatives who have gone to Israel (recently, this year) saw anything of the sort.

[skinster]

Cook didn't provide evidence that it happened at the time he wrote his opinion piece, and of course it matters whether it is an usual occurrence or not. Indeed, whining about a publicity stunt doesn't convince anyone.

Cook stated in his article that it was happening and I shared in this thread, how it is. Why does it matter if it's a "usual occurrence or not"?

In short, there is nothing to back these claims up.

Yair Lapid's party producing the hasbara brochures backs the claim up.

Indeed, as I mentioned in that thread, neither I nor relatives who have gone to Israel (recently, this year) saw anything of the sort.

You've changed your tune on this, from when you visited Israel a few years ago to your family visiting this year. You're missing the point of the article again. 1) Jonathan Cook made the claim less than 6 months ago and 2) the claim was that Israeli travelers were those who were issued the propaganda booklet to share with people outside of Israel.

[wat0n]

I mentioned in that thread that a relative of mine had traveled there a few months ago. I asked precisely because you pointed out that I had been in Israel years ago and things might have changed since then.

Whether handing brochures on the matter is an usual occurrence or not most certainly matters. After all, if it only happened when Lapid did so then why would you indict the country over his PR stunt? (It would be even worse if someone from his party got the idea from Cook, he would not have done so if Cook had simply omitted that claim).

[pugsville]

British attitudes and actions during the mandate are many and varied, many British officials and officers had either prejudice our views against Arabs or Jews, or become bias to wards one or other of the competing groups. Individual actions and incidents happened with the British favouring one side or the other,

However Overall the British actions decisively strengthened the Zionists and weakened the Palestinians.

- Immigration as long as British allowed any immigration the scale was slowing tipping.
- The British allowed the Zionists organisations to organise as the saw fit while interfering or not allowed free association by the Palestinians.
- The British brutal put down the Arab revolt but use kids gloves when the Zionists terrorists basically destroyed the mandate.b A lot of the IDF tactics decreed today were used by the British against the Arab revolt.
- British at times armed the Zionists and were not careful about getting the weapons back, Jewish Auxiliaries were widely used to Crush the Arab Revolt, and during ww2 there was much cooperation with the Zionists para militaries.

[wat0n]

Much of what you describe owes to the fact that the Arabs launched the revolt in the 30s against British rule - of course they would end up being weakened after doing something as suicidal as that. Had the Zionists done so instead, the British would have likely crushed them as well.

You say that the Zionists drove the British out, yet the actions by the Irgun didn't threaten British rule to the extent that the Arab revolt did - and if the British left it was mainly over the post-war exhaustion of their Empire. Maybe if the Arabs had launched their revolt back then, the British would have also left, and even quicker.

As for immigration, the British started to cut it out in the aftermath of the Arab revolt, though there were plenty of reasons for Jews to want to move there (and outside of Europe in general) at the time.

At last, regarding the right for organizing politically, the British recognized both Arab and Jewish political leaders until they decided to turn against them - indeed, the Arab Higher Committee was banned after it rejected the Peel Plan, and the Irgun was banned for the same reason.

What does matter, however, is that British policy was not really designed to favor the Zionists, but their own interests and that much of the damage done to Arab interests was essentially over their inability to work with the British in a way that would further their interests (which was their whole motivation to rule there) - something the central Zionist organization, the Jewish Agency, did (and the other Zionist political organizations didn't and were banned).

[skinster]

Whether handing brochures on the matter is an usual occurrence or not most certainly matters. After all, if it only happened when Lapid did so then why would you indict the country over his PR stunt? (It would be even worse if someone from his party got the idea from Cook, he would not have done so if Cook had simply omitted that claim).

Are you suggesting Cook lied when writing about hasbara booklets that are given to Israeli travelers to use to counter anti-Israeli sentiment? And that, after Cook made that claim, an Israeli political party decided to do just that?

And all this simply because you and your relatives have never experienced them, therefore it can't be true? Not to mention, I already pointed out that the booklets are not for you or your relatives who are visiting Israel, but for Israelis who are traveling outside of the country.


BDS news:
University of Liverpool students vote for BDS

A couple of American professors - who label themselves as "lifelong zionists" - who endorse the boycott.

[wat0n]

Are you suggesting Cook lied when writing about hasbara booklets that are given to Israeli travelers to use to counter anti-Israeli sentiment? And that, after Cook made that claim, an Israeli political party decided to do just that?

And all this simply because you and your relatives have never experienced them, therefore it can't be true?

Yes. If it was an usual occurrence before Cook wrote his article, why didn't we read about it in the news later and why was it only featured after a political party did so as a PR stunt? Why didn't anyone post some of those brochures on social media by the time Cook wrote his opinion piece? I'd have expected media like EI to have a field day with that.

[skinster]

I've read about various hasbara tactics employed by the Israeli government and other institutions. They're already on social and alternative media. I've posted some on this forum.

The fact is, the journalist didn't lie about the Israeli travelers propagandizing they do exist whether you or your relatives have experienced them or not - not that they're for you in the first place - or because you hadn't read about them before.

You latching on to one aspect of that Cook article is interesting though.

[wat0n]

I'd be surprised if there were no civil society organizations which work to engage in pro-Israel PR in Israel itself like the one you mentioned, but the brochures claim was particularly egregious.

[skinster]

You're now saying you accept it would happen, yet a journalist you dislike stating the same shocked/offended you.

[wat0n]

No, what I'm saying is that it is egregious to claim that people usually get brochures to engage in hasbara when departing in the Ben Gurion airport when there is little evidence to that effect. An airport is a rather public, visible place to do that and even foreigners, especially Hebrew-speaker ones, would be generally confirming that.

[skinster]

[youtube]n8mtxZesHVE[/youtube]

[wat0n]

Exactly, now that Lapid just went there to hand brochures out those videos magically appear. Kind of odd, right?

[skinster]

No.

[wat0n]

^ That's even more weird coming from someone who claims that social media provides instant information on whatever happens in Israel.

[skinster]

You seem confused, waton. First about the brochures stuff and now about what I said about social media. Here's the gist of what I did say, in video form:
[youtube]XxK3lt5Cdl8[/youtube]