[skinster]

They didn't voluntarily take the shots. They were given them without their consent, with an understanding that they were being vaccinated.

The Israel Health Minister said this needs to stop happening, he didn't say "Ethiopian women asking for contraception will be refused because of something or other that doesn't make sense".

[wat0n]

They didn't voluntarily take the shots. They were given them without their consent, with an understanding that they were being vaccinated.

The Israel Health Minister said this needs to stop happening, he didn't say "Ethiopian women asking for contraception will be refused because of something or other that doesn't make sense".

What the Israeli Health Ministry said is that it would make sure that Ethiopians are fully aware of the effects of depo-provera, not that it gave the shots with the aim of sterilizing them or that they told the Ethiopians that they are for treating flu. Indeed, such information seems to be necessary since even so-called Pulitzer winning journalists are unable to do a simply Google search to learn about them and it's even less likely that Ethiopian immigrants were fully aware of its effects.

But, since depo-provera is the most common contraceptive method in Ethiopia, I also don't really find it surprising that the Israelis used it either. Why wouldn't they just use the kind of contraception that is most common in the country?

[skinster]

The women who were injected were the ones who made the claims that they were told they were given flu shots. Are you saying they're lying?

[wat0n]

Certainly someone was. Maybe those activists were or maybe the Israeli government did.

If depo-provera is used by women to get contraception without telling their husbands, I would not be surprised if some women did (and would not blame them either). Likewise, the Israeli government also has a clear incentive to lie in this case for obvious reasons.

[skinster]

The lengths some go to apologise for the Israeli state obviously knows no bounds.

[wat0n]

Certainly they don't go as far as those who claim to uphold human rights and the like and cannot condemn attacks on civilians based on the victims' ethnorreligious origin.

[skinster]

^considering you support the Israeli govt. which periodically kills thousands of civilians, you're not in a position to judge anyone on this dumb shit you keep repeating in the hope it'll stick. People merely yawn at antisemitism accusations from Zionists these days. It appears that is lost on you. But good luck trying to make that stuff work.

BTW, if I'm such an anti-semite, how come I'm arguing for these (Ethiopian)Jews in this thread?

Ethiopian Women Claim Israel Gave Birth Control Shots Against Will

[wat0n]

^considering you support the Israeli govt. which periodically kills thousands of civilians, you're not in a position to judge anyone on this dumb shit you keep repeating in the hope it'll stick. Good luck, though.

The truth ain't dumb.

I don't hold different standards regarding civilians who are deliberately targeted, attacked and killed or maimed. You do.

BTW, if I'm such an anti-semite, how come I'm arguing for these (Ethiopian)Jews in this thread?

Oh so you think your preferences among Jews are relevant there? How cute!

Ethiopian Women Claim Israel Gave Birth Control Shots Against Will

And there you go, the Israeli government denied the claims at the time that it was part of some sort of policy. If anything, it took their claims seriously and ceased the practice precisely because of those allegations.

I at least don't see why the hell would the Israeli government even want to sterilize Ethiopian Jews anyway, if anything, doesn't it want to increase the Jewish population of Israel? Why would it go against this strategic goal?

I also don't understand well what happened after these women arrived to Israel. Did they keep getting the shots? Why would they do that if they were told they are flu shots? Flu shots aren't taken every 3 months, after all... And if they weren't told to keep getting them after arriving to Israel, then what would the point of giving them a non-permanent contraception that needs quarterly doses to be effective only once be if the culprits wanted to sterilize them without their knowledge? There are some holes in that hypothesis when you give it a second thought. Something simply doesn't fit there.

On the other hand, taking the above into account, it might seem more likely that there was a misunderstanding or that some women wanted to take the contraception in secret like other Ethiopian women do though in the latter case it is also weird that some would try to appear on TV saying they took contraception even if they claim it was unintendedly, it would make more sense to simply refuse to appear if they took the contraception in secret.

There's also the possibility that the Israelis simply provided the written consent forms and that they counted that they'd read them. Seems like an unlikely possibility as one would think they know that illiteracy is high in Ethiopia but I would not rule it out either.

[skinster]

I don't hold different standards regarding civilians who are deliberately targeted, attacked and killed or maimed. You do.

Wrong. You support a state that militarily occupies one group (which it regularly kills in large numbers). You're a constant apologist for it, as anyone who reads the threads on Israel-Palestine can see and frankly, I wasn't even debating with you, it was danholo who I responded to but you then swoop in to apologise for Israel as though you're a paid hasbara troll and now we get to here. That you then try to accuse me of racism while supporting a state which is fundamentally racist because it privileges one ethnic group over others, is I don't know, kind of hilarious. I think psychologists call that projection.

Oh so you think your preferences among Jews are relevant there? How cute!

Well, I didn't state the women I was arguing for in this thread were Jews in my first number of posts about them. That happened after the second accusation of racism from you, to show you how retarded you appear. I agree, it's unfortunate I have to point it out.

And there you go, the Israeli government denied the claims at the time that it was part of some sort of policy. If anything, it took their claims seriously and ceased the practice precisely because of those allegations.

I at least don't see why the hell would the Israeli government even want to sterilize Ethiopian Jews anyway, if anything, doesn't it want to increase the Jewish population of Israel? Why would it go against this strategic goal?

I also don't understand well what happened after these women arrived to Israel. Did they keep getting the shots? Why would they do that if they were told they are flu shots? Flu shots aren't taken every 3 months, after all... And if they weren't told to keep getting them after arriving to Israel, then what would the point of giving them a non-permanent contraception that needs quarterly doses to be effective only once be if the culprits wanted to sterilize them without their knowledge? There are some holes in that hypothesis when you give it a second thought. Something simply doesn't fit there.

On the other hand, taking the above into account, it might seem more likely that there was a misunderstanding or that some women wanted to take the contraception in secret like other Ethiopian women do though in the latter case it is also weird that some would try to appear on TV saying they took contraception even if they claim it was unintendedly, it would make more sense to simply refuse to appear if they took the contraception in secret.

There's also the possibility that the Israelis simply provided the written consent forms and that they counted that they'd read them. Seems like an unlikely possibility as one would think they know that illiteracy is high in Ethiopia but I would not rule it out either.

Now waton pretends as though he doesn't know discrimination amongst Jews happens / happened in Israel. I mean, we only have to go back a few decades to remember when Arab Jews were discriminated amongst Euro Jews in politics and culture and other areas of everyday living in border-less Israel. Actually, we only have to read this thread to see discrimination of Jews, because waton normally argues for Jews, except here he does not listen to the (African) Jewish women who claim they were given contraception without their will.

But for a real answer, it might have something to do with the figures of the Ethiopian birth rates declining significantly over the last decade which just happened out of nowhere because Israel doesn't discriminate against Black Jews, even though I posted a couple of videos in this thread earlier where Israel quite clearly does discriminate against Black Jews and you know, I'm willing to share many more, all you need to do is ask.

[Pongo]

Israeli soldiers treating Palestinian who tried to stab them. Only in Israel

https://www.facebook.com/ShehabAgency.M ... 55219325:0

[wat0n]

Wrong. You support a state that militarily occupies one group (which it regularly kills in large numbers).

As collateral damage, usually, yes.

You're a constant apologist for it, as anyone who reads the threads on Israel-Palestine can see and frankly, I wasn't even debating with you, it was danholo who I responded to but you then swoop in to apologise for Israel as though you're a paid hasbara troll and now we get to here. That you then try to accuse me of racism while supporting a state which is fundamentally racist because it privileges one ethnic group over others, is I don't know, kind of hilarious. I think psychologists call that projection.

Sorry but did I say you are racist? Actually you suggested it yourself. Having double-standards is not necessarily out of racism, though it is one of the most common reasons for that. But hey, if you think the shoe fits you then wear it.

And if you won't debate, if you'll just run away from the argument, why do you post in a political debate forum?

Well, I didn't state the women I was arguing for in this thread were Jews in my first number of posts about them. That happened after the second accusation of racism from you, to show you how retarded you appear. I agree, it's unfortunate I have to point it out.

Yes, because it was an action allegedly carried out by the Israeli state so apparently there are no Muslims involved.

You don't show any concern when Ethiopian or other Jews are deliberately killed or maimed by Palestinians, however.

Now waton pretends as though he doesn't know discrimination amongst Jews happens / happened in Israel. I mean, we only have to go back a few decades to remember when Arab Jews were discriminated amongst Euro Jews in politics and culture and other areas of everyday living in border-less Israel.

Indeed, but in no case the Israeli state sterilized those Jews. On the contrary, they tried to get as many as possible into their territory.

Furthermore, while there are still gaps in achievement within the different Jewish subgroups, particularly Ashkenazi and Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews, the truth is that tensions between the different ethnicities have trended down over time and even the achievement gap has been closing very slowly. For instance, while intermarriage between these Jewish subgroups was rather uncommon in the '70s it is very common now, to the point that they will have merged in 2-3 generations if these trends hold.

Probably the same will happen with Ethiopian Jews over time.

Actually, we only have to read this thread to see discrimination of Jews, because waton normally argues for Jews, except here he does not listen to the (African) Jewish women who claim they were given contraception without their will.

Sorry but I didn't say that their claims arose because they are Ethiopian nor do I refuse to listen to them because of that. I just don't have to refuse to look at them critically, particularly in light of their internal consistency and also that it is the very Israeli state which went to pick them up from Ethiopia, because they are Ethiopian.

I don't believe people's views and needs should be taken into account depending on ethnorreligious origin like you do - and quite fucking conveniently, the concerns you tend to give a highest priority to are precisely those of those who are Muslims or from ethnicities with a high percentage of Muslims - that is, people who are quite similar to your own ethnorreligious origin.

But for a real answer, it might have something to do with the figures of the Ethiopian birth rates declining significantly over the last decade which just happened out of nowhere because Israel doesn't discriminate against Black Jews, even though I posted a couple of videos in this thread earlier where Israel quite clearly does discriminate against Black Jews and you know, I'm willing to share many more, all you need to do is ask.

Birth rates can have gone down simply because they now have higher income than those who lived in Ethiopia had, so they prefer to have less children. The same has occurred to other Israeli Jewish subgroups in Israel over time since 1948.

Indeed, to even begin to wonder if depo-provera may have something to do one would have to first learn when did it start to be given to Ethiopian immigrants. If the Israelis have always given it to them, how can you conclude that the trend of less births has anything to do with it?

[Heinie]

As collateral damage, usually, yes. ...

Such a phrase has to be one of the most shameless manipulations of language used to justify war crimes ever conceived.

[wat0n]

Not nearly as bad as saying that it's irrelevant for someone like Samir Kuntar to murder a 4 year old girl and her father as you've done, particularly since it was clear and unarguable that such killings were deliberate.

I will take this outrage more seriously if, and when, your concern regarding civilian casualties stops being based on the identity of the victims of deliberate attacks. Ditto for skinster.

In the meantime, I'll laugh at these attempts to pretend you are morally superior to anyone and constantly remind you of how your so-called principles are applied hypocritically, that's the best road to take with these double-standards

[skinster]

Such a phrase has to be one of the most shameless manipulations of language used to justify war crimes ever conceived.

Indeed.

Ignoring waton's post because it went so far into Hasbara-Fellowships-deflection territory and I haz no time to waste on that.

[wat0n]

Which part of my answer was not true, I wonder?

The trend of a merging of Ashkenazim and Sephardim, perhaps? That one is empirically documented.

That collateral damage is the most likely explanation for civilian casualties? That one too, given that the civilian casualty ratio of all Palestinian deaths due to direct Israeli actions is around 1:1, which is no different from that caused by NATO member operations (e.g. the Kosovo War), that it has trended down since September 2000 (especially when there are no major military operations), that fighting-age males are way overrepresented in Palestinian casualty statistics (if Israel attacked Palestinians randomly, you'd expect that no demographic group would be overrepresented among casualties) and also given the strong evidence (reported by human rights NGOs, taped in videos, reported by witnesses and even the UNRWA itself in the last war) that Palestinian civilian infrastructure is used to carry out attacks.

Of course, I'm pretty sure you can find particular instances of intra-Jewish racism in Israel (especially among Haredim) and also that some IDF soldiers do deliberately attack Palestinian civilians. But those seem to be more the exception than the norm, and it is also not qualitatively different from what happens in the West (for instance mistreatment of civilians by NATO soldiers are well documented. And yes, that includes children), but then I don't think anyone has claimed Israel is a perfect country or that it doesn't have room for improvement.

But of course it's easier to scream "hurr durr hasbara" and refuse to debate when you don't really have any decent counterargument to offer.

[skinster]

The problem with you is you can't stick to a topic and it gets ever-so-boring very quickly, for me and no doubt for people reading this shit. For example, I never made any claims about the different Jewish sects marrying each other. I know that happens. I have Jewish-frands IRL who've done this. You drivel on like grandma about things I'm not interested in.

I'll let you think you won the debate if that's what'll take for you to stop responding to me.

See you apologizing for Israel the next time we get news of what a shitty state Israel is. Adios for now.

[wat0n]

The problem with you is you can't stick to a topic and it gets ever-so-boring very quickly, for me and no doubt for people reading this shit.

Sorry but the one who decided to bring some stuff about Ethiopian Jews here was you.

In any event, I do not see how pointing out your long standing double-standards is not within the topic when you act as if you applied your so-called morality impartially. Guess what, you don't - you have labeled deliberate attacks against Jewish and also (Westerner) non-Jewish civilians as a form of legitimate resistance, while (rightly in this case) labeling deliberately attacking Muslim civilians as a crime because they are civilians (period).

I'll let you think you won the debate if that's what'll take for you to stop responding to me.

See you apologizing for Israel the next time we get news of what a shitty state Israel is. Adios for now.

See you justifying attacking civilians based on their ethnicity while pretending to be against racism and then refusing to debate when your shit gets confronted because some of us have no problem in doing so!

[yoyoman2]

And here you pretend the sterilization of African women in Israel is "misinformation", "libel" and not the "whole truth", despite sharing any evidence to support your position, not to mention, ignoring completely that Israeli authorities have admitted to doing it.

Why do people want to show so badly that Israelis are somehow racists, especially to other Jews.

Everytime someone pulls up this story I see the same old thing again and again, that the sterilization shot has a 3 month effect, and it has many other advantages, it's not just for sterilization.

[Rich]

Why do people want to show so badly that Israelis are somehow racists, especially to other Jews.

Well if its to debunk the drivel that somehow Jews are the innocents of history all well and good. That the Jews are the originators of "morality". If its to rip apart the evil idea that somehow Goyim owe the Jews something, that we should feel guilty towards them I feel its very healthy. However if its to try and demonise Israel then its sick. Sick that people should try and propagandise for Muslims terrorists at the expense of decent westerners who would be quite capable of living in peace and harmony with their neighbours, if they weren't surrounded by a sea of fast breeding Muslims.

The Jewish scriptures teach Jewish racial supremacism. But in particular they teach Jewish exceptionalism. One moment praising Jews, one moment abusing them. The story of Judah selling his brother into slavery comes from the Jewish scriptures. Christianity inherited this schizophrenic exceptionalism. The lefties seem to have inherited it from Christianity.

What is bizarre is that Americans whose government openly proclaims Guantanamo Bay and their right to arrest and torture any individual in the world without trial without due process, spend their time attacking the Israel government. Why don't the lefties demand that we Boycott, divest and sanction Saudi Arabia?

[skinster]

Why do people want to show so badly that Israelis are somehow racists, especially to other Jews.

Israelis who support Zionism think they deserve more privileges and that it's okay to occupy and imprison a people based on their ethnicity (racists! ) and there are some Israelis who have also discriminated against non-Euro Israelis in the past (Mizrahi/African) and currently (African). It's just...a thing because it happened or is happening.

Everytime someone pulls up this story I see the same old thing again and again, that the sterilization shot has a 3 month effect, and it has many other advantages, it's not just for sterilization.

I guess you forgot the part where the African women were given the shots with false information or against their will.