[Zamuel]

Pongo, you need to get off the you're-an-antisemite-if-you-don't-support-Israel train, nobody falls for that shit anymore.

I disagree pongo ... Not everyone is anti-Semetic because they do not actively boost Israel ... It's a complex situation that deserves a bit of open minded examination ... fair questions need to be asked and answered. A TRUE appreciation will always find dirty laundry on both sides. -IF- after making such a survey an open mind feels compelled to speak ... They may have something interesting to say.

Anti-Semitism is a deep seated affliction, that isn't going to be cured here on Pofo. It's irrational, and indicates personal problems at it's root. The BEST that can be hoped for here on PoFo is to counter the lies, deception, and Pseudo History being disseminated to fertile minds. The idea is NOT to brainwash people to. support Israel ... The idea is to prevent the Arab / Palestinian attempt to brainwash and implant false information.

Zam

[redcarpet]

There is an antisemitism problem behind opposition to Israel, including on a portion of the Left of late http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and-left.

Only a willful dupe or brazen liar would pretend otherwise.

[Zamuel]

There is an antisemitism problem behind opposition to Israel, including on a portion of the Left of late http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and-left.Only a willful dupe or brazen liar would pretend otherwise.

I found that a very interesting article, thx ... I was particularly struck by this passage.

"The way in which anti-Semitism is distinguished, and should be distinguished, from racism, has to do with the sort of imaginary of power, attributed to the Jews, Zionism, and Israel, which is at the heart of anti-Semitism. The Jews are seen as constituting an immensely powerful, abstract, intangible global form of power that dominates the world. There is nothing similar to this idea at the heart of other forms of racism"

There's nothing really new there, but distinguishing the differences between anti-Semitism and typical racism which generally focuses on negative qualities is enlightening. We have indeed see these elements used OVER and OVER again recently here on Pofo by what appears to be an organized group devoted to continual anti-Semitic agitation. This thread being their latest attempt.

Zam

[redcarpet]

It's hard to claim fairly, that you're not anti-semitic AND are an anti-Zionist as well. That's a pretty clear contradiction. Because you're saying ONLY JEWS CAN'T HAVE THEIR OWN STATE. Everyone else can but not them.

Well, that's bigotry. Just as if I were to say only GLBTI people should be allowed into gay bars, etc. How wouldn't that be anti-straight prejudice? How about everyone EXCEPT THE KURDS can have their own state. How isn't that anti-Kurdish bigotry?

Enough with the vacillation and dancing around. Just say it. Jews can't have their own state, they must accept being a minority in any state they live in. EVEN if/when that means persecution. Go on, SAY IT. Then you'd reveal your real intention. Jews have to be a minority wherever they are. How dare they raise their head, lobby for equality and HEAVEN FORBID have their own state as a majority to live in. Sheesh.

[Zamuel]

It's hard to claim fairly, that you're not anti-semitic AND are an anti-Zionist as well. That's a pretty clear contradiction. because you're saying ONLY JEWS CAN'T HAVE THEIR OWN STATE. Everyone else can but not them.

Well, that's bigotry. Just as if I were to say only GLBTI people should be allowed into gay bars, etc. How wouldn't that be anti-straight prejudice? How about everyone EXCEPT THE KURDS can have their own state. How isn't that anti-Kurdish bigotry?

Enough with the vacillation and dancing around. Just say it. Jews can't have their own state, they must accept being a minority in any state they live in. EVEN if/when that means persecution. Go on, SAY IT. Then you'd reveal your real intention. Jews have to be a minority wherever they are. How dare they raise their head, lobby for equality and HEAVEN FORBID have their own state as a majority to live in. Sheesh.

Very succinctly put ... The immediate problem it seems being a question of whether Anti-Semitism is an "Allowable" racist philosophy ? It's apparent they don't like being exposed as something other than "Concerned Humanitarians." Hence the relocation of this subject to it's own thread. I didn't request it, and I'm listed as having initiated it ... Did any of YOU request it ? Any thoughts about anti-Semitism beign allowed to masquerade as non racist humanitarianism?

Zam

[layman]

Anti zionism implies that the jewish state itself is not legitimate. However, those same people tend to quote the 1967 borders as being a fair deal. I am not sure that is an honest position.

There is an implicit implication that anti-zionism means more than just a return to the 1967 borders and a palestinian state. It seems to mean both that and changing israel to be a 100% secular state and allowing the right to return of millions of arabs.

The logical conclusion to this is that both the new palestinian state and the new secular state will end up majority arab/muslim. One or both may even end up with pro muslim religious laws.

[wat0n]

I think one needs to distinguish between strong anti-Zionism and simply opposition to current Israeli policies. The former, implies the destruction of the State of Israel, the latter does not necessarily call for that but simply for a major policy change.

I also don't think anti-Zionism is necessarily antisemitic. For instance, an anarchist who believes all states should be destroyed doesn't seem like he has the double-standard redcarpet mentioned.

Still, there is a strong correlation between anti-Zionism and antisemitism. But one doesn't necessarily imply the other, you need more information to be able to say an anti-Zionist is antisemitic as well.

[layman]

the latter does not necessarily call for that but simply for a major policy change.

The right of return and ending israel as a jewish state are the demands.

Essentially anti-zionism means the end of israel and a safe place for jews.

The 1967 border thing is therefore not genuine. They want more than that.

[redcarpet]

The right of return and ending Israel as a Jewish state are the demands.

Essentially anti-Zionism means the end of Israel and a safe place for Jews.

The 1967 border thing is therefore not genuine. They want more than that.

Certainly when it comes to questioning or denouncing the mere establishment of Israel in 1948. We've seen some of that here, on this board.

That Israel itself is 'occupied Palestine' and its establishment was wrong simply because Zionism was immigration based. There are plenty of states where most of the population are immigrants/descended. From the USA to Argentina.

Nor is Israel foreign occupied territory. It is a sovereign recognised state. Jews didn't 'invade' Mandatory Palestine. They legally, and illegally at times, immigrated there in anticipation of the realisation of the Zionist idea. With an extra boost after 1945, particularly given the tight controls and refusals elsewhere.

There's also the argument that it was somehow illegitimate for Britain to announce the Balfour Declaration. Ummmm, any state has a foreign policy. The League of Nations accepted the need for its implementation. And the next intl. org the UN did so as well. Though the Arab states voted no and then behaved like sore losers and proceeded to invade Israel because they were opposed to it no matter what, despite the illegality of a war of aggression & violating the UN decision.

[Zamuel]

Essentially anti-zionism means the end of israel and a safe place for jews.

What you are looking at is a simple 3 tiered process.

1)Anti-Zionism - Israel has gotten to big, Zionist Expansion must be rescinded.
2)Anti-Israel - Israel has no right to exist as a state. It must cease to exist.
3)Anti-Semitism - Kill the Jews.

Well meaning Humanists are lured into Anti-Zionism, it's becoming a major industry. They mean well, They're led to believe Palestinians are victims of expansionist repression. They don't understand that their humanity is fueling this 3 tiered process. Some of them will become so invested that they evolve into supporters of stage 2 - Anti-Israel activities. Probably very few will ever reach stage 3. But they're not needed there anyway.

Stage 3 Anti-Semites were never innocent humanists ... Most of them were raised by haters to be haters. This is the elitist group that has ESTABLISHED the 3 tiered system in place today.

This is an extremely simplified model ... there are a lot of detectable subtle influences that accompany it ... A general disregard for the humanity of Jews is one of the most prevalent. Paranoia about pervasive Jewish influence is another.

Zam

[Flighter]

There are plenty of people in today's world who think that the main cause of their suffers are "jews spoiling their life on every stage of government", i would say that all pro-/anti- semitic people are very close with their mentality. They cant live without each other, like yin yang, two sides of one coin.
There are two types of jews, Ashkenazim and Sephardi.
Khazar kingdom or Khazar kaganate was the north Caucasian turk/slav/mongol state, it was mostly trade civilization.
They tried to keep their sovereignty by adoption of Judaism, thus separating themselves from South muslims and Rus kings.
When Ruses conquered Khazars they made huge mistake, they destroyed State, but not the will of people for segregation from Rus.
Ashkenazim are nice people, very smart, polite, they constituted basis of intellectual force in USSR and business elite of Russia.
Why Ashkenazim should treat Russia as their homeland if its not quite true?
Rus conquered their North Caucasian homeland thus deprived jewry of their State. I think those antisemitic people who still exist in modern world are bringing the wrath of divine power on themselves, and World history confirm that.

[Heinie]

Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur. Numerous Jewish people, labeled by Israelis as "self-hating Jews", oppose Zionism.

[youtube]CxYsR0W-MJs[/youtube]

[Zamuel]

Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur. Numerous Jewish people, labeled by Israelis as "self-hating Jews", oppose Zionism.

Wow! Israelis disagree about things ... imagine that ...

Zam

[redcarpet]

Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur.

As I just demonstrated it's sometimes true, certainly intellectually. By pointing out that to oppose a Zionist state is you saying ONLY Jews can't have their own state in the world. Well, that's a prejudicial attitude, if nothing more

[Heinie]

Wow! Israelis disagree about things ... imagine that ...

Correction: I wrote about "Jewish people", not "Israelis". The anti-Zionist Jewish youth in the video who was manhandled by the Israelis is an American citizen.

[Lightman]

Anti-Zionism is not ipso facto anti-Semitism, but the disproportionate attention that a lot of gentiles give the State of Israel is rather...suggestive? If you spend a significant portion of your political life arguing about a relatively small conflict that you have no direct stake, to the neglect of other, significantly more violent and oppressive conflicts, I think you might have some sort of ulterior motive, whether you're consciously aware of it or not.

[pugsville]

Anti Zionism is not (always) that Jews can not have their own country, but they should not be allowed to steal someone else's. Yes other nations were built on immigration and colonisation. And in part the intractability of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that this colonisation/immigration did not either result in the the massive collapse of the native population by disease or the month swamping of Native population by vast numbers of colonisers. It also did not result in the colonisers being so few in number they were swamped in the end by the native population, But rather situation were both populations were somewhat balanced.

The way forward is a negotiated treaty. Which Israel has consistently refused to acknowledge the rights of the native population. Until they do bio real settlement can be made. As long as Israel thinks and does impose it's 'rights' by force without any reference to the rights of the Palestinians no sensible talks can really be held. There has been a vast train of bad and despicable behaviour by both sides, But the Palestinians were invaded and at no stage treated as equals. Zionist is racism. It was built on treated people much much worse than how they wished to be treated. Zionism was always directly opposed to the interest of the native population and never recognised them as having any rights what so ever.

IF Israeli wants to move beyond that it has to start recognising the Palestinians are people and they have rights.

The UN vote on the partition of Palestine was one heavily influenced by bribery, corruption and threats. The legitimacy of the vote can be legitimately questioned.

[Dagoth Ur]

The nature of the conflict, its strategic implications should it be resolved in any manner and being the showcase for the legitimacy of ethnosupremacist states (and therefore the amount of capital that is poured into it), has more to do with that [the high visibility of the Israeli Occupation] than background anti-semitism.

It is only "suggestive" is the notion of a naturally anti-semitic gentile is accepted as reasonable.

also lol@redcarpet so hard. Is that silly nonsense really what you want to go with? Who ever said every ethnicity deserved its own nation? National Liberation is a matter of freeing people from oppression, not oppressing someone else weaker than you and staning on their necks.

[Pisa]

There are two types of jews, Ashkenazim and Sephardi.

No, there are no types of jews. Jews are a single people, with common ancestry and common history. Even the Lemba have clear jewish ancestry.

There are cultural, linguistic, and religious differences between members of the same people living in the same country. all the more so when the members of the people have lived for more than two millennia in very different host cultures.

Labeling anti-Zionists as anti-Semites is an ignorant Israeli slur.

No it's not. Anyone who claims that jews have no right to a state of their own is an anti-semite, because his way would lead jews back to being an oppressed minority in other countries. I really and sincerely don't care how anti-zionists view or label themselves, as long as the consequences of their actions might be disastrous for my people.

Interesting though that the arabs are copy-pasting jewish history, creating ghettos for palestinian arabs, claiming they have been expelled from their lands, persecuting them in exactly the same ways jews have been persecuted. This is an unambiguous recognition of the right of a people persecuted like the jews have been to their own state.

Arabs have been manufacturing for decades - under the wide shut eyes of the international community, and with the complicity and backing of the UN - a people whose sole purpose and raison d'etre is the destruction of the jewish state. But zionists are evil...

The anti-Zionist Jewish youth in the video who was manhandled by the Israelis is an American citizen.

This is a clear provocation. Anyone disturbing public peace will be "manhandled" by police anywhere in this world.

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- The Palestinian Authority must order an investigation into allegations of police brutality and the arbitrary arrest of demonstrators at a Ramallah protest on Sunday, Human Rights Watch said Tuesday.

"The police beat protesters and then arrested injured people, some even from the hospital," said Tom Porteous, deputy program director at Human Rights Watch. "The Palestinian Authority needs to make clear to the police that this is no way to handle a demonstration."

Hundreds of protesters affiliated to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine rallied in Ramallah on Sunday against the decision to return to peace talks with Israel.

Clashes erupted after Palestinian police attacked the protesters as they marched toward the presidential compound. Injuries were reported on both sides.

"The demonstrators were trying to get past the barrier when the attack started," Khalida Jarrar, a PFLP member of the Palestinian parliament, told Human Rights Watch.

"I was talking to one of the policemen when I was shoved to the ground and they hit me hard while I was on the ground. When I got to the hospital [for treatment] some of the injured had been arrested and were in the police van. The police in the hospital were taking people’s IDs."

Muhannad Alazzeh, a researcher for Addameer, a human rights group, confirmed that PA police were trying to arrest injured demonstrators being treated in hospital

Care to comment on the above?

[Pisa]

Who ever said every ethnicity deserved its own nation? National Liberation is a matter of freeing people from oppression, not oppressing someone else weaker than you and staning on their necks.

Right. Let's start with Iran. They've been oppressing ethnic and religious minorities for a very long time.

May we get to Japan next, please? They deny any rights to their korean minority, you know, the descendants of the korean slaves.

We can talk about berbers in West Sahara, too...

This is not the place to discuss the palestinian issue. However, expecting jews to behave differently than any other people, and crucifying them for not complying, is anti-semitic.