[Shinsuke Nakamura]

Do North American conservatives support Israel with such a passion due to US, Canada and Israel being settler societies?

The elites look at how Israel has treated the Palestinians and they see a connection with how the First Nations people were treated in Canada and the US.

Stephen Harper former PM in Canada was probably the most fervent supporter of Israel among world leaders. He was also known for his horrible relations with the First Nations people of Canada.

The white elites of North America know that they have broken their own moral standards that force on the developing world with respect to the Aboriginal populations and they see this being repeated in Israel. Supporting Israel is a great way to assuage their fear or revenge or feelings of guilt and maintain a morally superior position.

[Drlee]

Ok. So here is the answer that you will find unsatisfying and certainly not politically correct.

American conservatives are not so much in love with Israel as they are simply hating Arabs. We can not turn on our televisions without seeing yet another mob shouting "death to America". We see terror attacks as an unacceptable way of attaining political goals. We find Islam completely in contradiction to the values we hold dear. We do not wish to own our women, we do not believe in brutal regimes exercising power in the name of Allah and even we conservatives believe in far more personal freedom than we see in the region.

Except for Israel. We love underdogs. We see them as standing as a bastion of reason in a region that is anathema to what we believe.

The white elites of North America know that they have broken their own moral standards that force on the developing world with respect to the Aboriginal populations and they see this being repeated in Israel. Supporting Israel is a great way to assuage their fear or revenge or feelings of guilt and maintain a morally superior position.

We know no such thing. I am an American conservative and I do not know anyone who believes this. Perhaps you are not from the US. Please understand that we fear no revenge. We know that if we want to we can so reduce the region to chaos that any direct or existential threat to us is laughable.

We have absolutely no allies in the region. None. The very concept of allies in the Islamic world is meaningless. We have those with whom we share a few common interests. That is about all. Except for Israel. Israel is not a nice play buddy and will get out of line quickly but in the end they bear us no animus and need us for political if not military protection. We have no desire to see a country with European values overrun by a group of nations with the stated goals of destroying Judaism and Christianity.

So really the answer to your question is that Israel wins by default.

Your whole First Nations argument fails anyway as, in this region, Jews ARE first nation people. Certainly people with a few millennia of history there. We see Jerusalem as the Capital of the Abrahamic world and certainly one in which Jews can claim a few thousand years.

No my friend, we North American conservatives are not guilt ridden pussies. It would be a dangerously serious miscalculation to believe that we are.

[Dagoth Ur]

How the fuck is Israel the underdog? They have fucking nukes. Be serious drlee.

Also you display the something very fundamental about American comservatives though, when it comes to our genocide of our natives, dismiss, deflect, obscure. Israel is a first nation? Serisously fuck off with that part. It is disgusting you would even try to make that analogy.

Nakamura fails to understand how important denying the genocide of over eleven million indians is to the American political establishment. Especially that this policy extends to the present day.

[Heinie]

Ok. So here is the answer that you will find unsatisfying and certainly not politically correct.

American conservatives are not so much in love with Israel as they are simply hating Arabs. We can not turn on our televisions without seeing yet another mob shouting "death to America".

Having had their countries such as Iraq and Libya destabilized by invasion and military interventions, can anyone blame Arabs wanting the same for the USA, it must be asked. By supporting and financing the Israeli massacres in Gaza and the brutal occupation of the indigenous Palestinian Arabs, the USA has to reason that they will be unpopular.

We see terror attacks as an unacceptable way of attaining political goals.

Not including Israeli state terrorism in Gaza and the Occupied Territories.

We find Islam completely in contradiction to the values we hold dear.

Such as Abu Ghaireb, Guantánamo, rendition for torture purposes, racism, invasion of citizens privacy rights, Agent Orange, sell-outs to corporations over the interests of citizens, nationalizing banking debts while allowing casino financial traders to mint billions in bonuses, outsourcing American jobs to slave labor markets and sweatshops in China and southeast Asia. Permitting any demented weirdo to arm themselves with firepower to kill schoolchildren, students, theatergoers, families, and Americans cannot turn on the TVs without seeing all this reported week-by-week. A fine set of values indeed.

We do not wish to own our women, we do not believe in brutal regimes exercising power in the name of Allah and even we conservatives believe in far more personal freedom than we see in the region.

Your women. How patronizing and gallant. White racists owned Blacks too in America. Personal freedom to live without fear of being gunned-down, losing a job, a home, and to mind their own business without being spied-on by the government is not the kind of freedom enjoyed by Americans.

Except for Israel. We love underdogs. ...

The Vietnamese were underdogs, as were the victims of Chile's Pinochet and Latin American military juntas such as thrived with CIA support in Argentina, Central and South America, the Cubans have been an underdog suffering withering sanctions by the world's superpower for decades. Knock off the transparent and bogus verbiage about American values and championing the causes of the poor at home and abroad.

[Dagoth Ur]

Oh and yeah I missed that. The smugness of drlee's claim that women aren't oppressed and viewed as objects in the west is just plain ridiculous.

[Drlee]

Of course I knew that my response would bring out the usual anti-Semites. No surprise there.

Now that you children have had your personal attack can one of you dispute a single thing that I said?

I thought not.

There was a question here. Why..... ? I answered it. You may not like the answer but it is fundamentally the truth. You can whine and snivel about native Americans 200 years ago or slavery but they are irrelevant. Of course you two are too young to have any appreciation about the Iranian Hostage taking or the Marine barracks bombing. So you are excused for not having a clue about regional history.

Care to ask the Kuwaitis about how they feel about American intervention in the region?

And for the record. I can not tell you how little of a shit most American conservatives care about ancient history.

No back at you. Factually dispute what I said or shut the fuck up. I really have no desire to engage in another childish anti-American food fight.

[Rich]

Having had their countries such as Iraq and Libya destabilized by invasion and military interventions, can anyone blame Arabs wanting the same for the USA, it must be asked.

How many Iraqi Shia, how many Iraqi Kurds have sought to attack the West? No they were pleased that America liberated from that tyrant. The terrorism of Iraq's Sunni Arab bully boys and their supporting Sunni Muslim bully boys around the world is not a testament to the wrongness of removing Saddam but its rightness. If bullies are not angry that means you're cowardly appeasing them. I would just like to say to Bush and Blair, thank you, you did a righteous and noble thing by removing Saddam. You can be justly proud of your actions.

The Infidel resistance to Islamic terror is only just beginning. Our crusade for human rights will not stop till we have restored Pagan worship to the Kaaba and ended Saudi Apartheid. As for destabilising Libya, what a joke, Libya was in civil war before we dropped a single bomb.

[Dagoth Ur]

Anti-semites? lol because I REFUSED to let you get away with calling Israelis a "first nation"? Okay drlee.

I don't give a shit about middle eastern sand peoples. I give a shit about you glossing over on-going genocide, I give a shit about you trying to equate a people with nukes and the backing of the most powerful nations in the world, with an impoverished people with a tenuous control over any of their religious sites. That you cannot see the difference speaks volumes about you.

That you consider this on-going genocide "ancient history" says even more.

[x]

[Drlee]

Anti-semites? lol because I REFUSED to let you get away with calling Israelis a "first nation"? Okay drlee.

I don't give a shit about middle eastern sand peoples. I give a shit about you glossing over on-going genocide, I give a shit about you trying to equate a people with nukes and the backing of the most powerful nations in the world, with an impoverished people with a tenuous control over any of their religious sites. That you cannot see the difference speaks volumes about you.

That you consider this on-going genocide "ancient history" says even more.

So no you should shut the fuck up with your asshole analogies to a people you seem proud to continue to destroy.

And I knew you had absolutely no response to what I said except the same old tired personal attacks.

Just for the record, not a soul has disputed a single point I made yet. Perhaps someone with some maturity might want to try.

[Shinsuke Nakamura]

I understand the 150 years of broken treaties and mass violence perpetrated by Canada and the US.

Anyone who looks at Israelis knows that they are mainly are European import into the Middle East.

If Israel wants to be known as the good while withholding statehood to Palestinians that is bull.

Israel should just say we are occupying this land for resources and security and building settlements to force the Palestinians out.

But they can't drop moral pretensions because it is a large part of their power.

[Shinsuke Nakamura]

I am just so sick of people I know who always pump up Canada as the greatest country that ever has been and the moral bastion of the world. And at the same time they are just plain hypocrites when you look at the way Canada has treated First Nations people and the violence done to them.

If Canadians would drop moral pretensions and admit what this country is I would not be upset as much; but the idea of Canada the good is too powerful and they don't want to lower their moral standing on this planet Earth.

It's cowardly hypocrisy.

[Dagoth Ur]

lol contest what drlee? That Israel is a "first nation"? That Israel is the weak party in its affairs?

[ThirdTerm]

"The Israel Lobby" by Mearsheimer and Walt is an important book to read about US foreign policy towards Israel. Racism is not a factor when it comes to American support for Israel and it's geopolitics that plays a major role. Israel is a client state by which the US gains a foothold in the Middle East. Zionism is also strong among evangelicals who believe Jews need to “return” to the Middle East to hasten the second coming of Jesus, which is the main reason why white conservatives are Zionists.

"The Israel Lobby," by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, was one of the most controversial articles in recent memory. Originally published in the London Review of Books in March 2006, it provoked both howls of outrage and cheers of gratitude for challenging what had been a taboo issue in America: the impact of the Israel lobby on U.S. foreign policy.

Now in a work of major importance, Mearsheimer and Walt deepen and expand their argument and confront recent developments in Lebanon and Iran. They describe the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel and argues that this support cannot be fully explained on either strategic or moral grounds. This exceptional relationship is due largely to the political influence of a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.

Mearsheimer and Walt provocatively contend that the lobby has a far-reaching impact on America's posture throughout the Middle East―in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict―and the policies it has encouraged are in neither America's national interest nor Israel's long-term interest. The lobby's influence also affects America's relationship with important allies and increases dangers that all states face from global jihadist terror.

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S- ... 0374531501

[anasawad]

The fun lart about semites is that.
Semitic people are actually black not white. All the historical imagery of them shows them as black not as white.
Thats why thry couldnt be told apart from Egyptions.
Not i know some look at Egyprions and say they're not black. But in reality. Today the people of Egypt arent really the true Egyptions since the Arab invasions kicked most people south. So todays Egyptions are acrually Arabs and actual Egyprions are mainly in Sudan and central Africa along the nile river.
So European Jews making Israel today not only are not actually semitic. But also if we want to take the fact that Jews can only be jewish by birth of a Jewish mother. Then thry arent real jews as well.

On the other hand since Europeans colonized and inslaved Africans including those of central Africa. Which many ended up becoming African Americans. Then white Americans who inslaved black people and some that are currently racist against them are the actual anti-semites.

You know you could easily tell so if you read the bible. You know. Jews being thrown into slavery and many nations aimed at them to attack them and inslave them and all these curses god pointed at sons of Israel.

[Drlee]

I understand the 150 years of broken treaties and mass violence perpetrated by Canada and the US.

Anyone who looks at Israelis knows that they are mainly are European import into the Middle East.

If Israel wants to be known as the good while withholding statehood to Palestinians that is bull.

Israel should just say we are occupying this land for resources and security and building settlements to force the Palestinians out.

But they can't drop moral pretensions because it is a large part of their power.

I see. So you did not have a question at all and are not interested in the answers. You just want to start another bash the USA thread.

I see you are at least affecting a Japanese name. Now there is a historical bastion of liberality and peace.

Still waiting. It is interesting that not a soul is prepared to argue with my points. Perhaps they can't because they know that they are true.

But the personal attacks are interesting. They are simply the emotional responses of pathetic drama queens.

For our OP. Please consider that a great many US independents and even liberals feel the same way. There are the scum who would alibi the oppression of women, the hanging of homosexuals and the absolute monarchism of an Islamic state under the guise of liberality. They are not smart people.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yet another post where drlee thinks not "bashing" America is more important than acknowledging the on-going genocide against Native Americans.

Tell us more about the atomic underdog Israel and how it fights hordes of super advanced savages. Sounds more like the cowboy vs indian dynamic.

[noemon]

We have absolutely no allies in the region. None. The very concept of allies in the Islamic world is meaningless. We have those with whom we share a few common interests. That is about all. Except for Israel. Israel is not a nice play buddy and will get out of line quickly but in the end they bear us no animus and need us for political if not military protection. We have no desire to see a country with European values overrun by a group of nations with the stated goals of destroying Judaism and Christianity.

Muslim Turkey(the successor of the Ottoman empire) is a NATO member and ally for quite a long time while for example Israel isn't and second, the Christian Church in the Holy Land under the Ottoman Empire was better off than they are under Israel. Christians in Jerusalem not only face huge amounts of racism from the Jewish population but they also face persecution by the State of Israel itself.

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

Though he is, at times, coy about using the word, Theophilus's basic charge is that for two years attempts have been made to blackmail him into completing and approving the "unfulfilled" – and in political terms radioactively sensitive – deals made during the tenure of his predecessor. Last month, he detailed his complaints about his treatment by Israel – which he has described as a "humiliation and ridiculousness" – at a meeting with Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, during her last trip to Jerusalem.

In the wall of his wood-panelled first-floor office there is a copy of the historic document given to his 7th-century predecessor Sophronius by Omar Ibn al Khattab, the Second Caliph of Islam, after his bloodless conquest of Jerusalem in 637 and promising the protection of the holy places.

[Drlee]

Muslim Turkey(the successor of the Ottoman empire) is a NATO member and ally for quite a long time while for example Israel isn't and second, Christians under the Ottoman Empire were better off than they are under Israel. Christians in Jerusalem not only face huge amounts of racism from the Jewish population but they also face persecution by the State of Israel itself.

Very true. But Turkey is NOT a very good or reliable partner. It is moving out of the NATO sphere of interest and may one day lose membership. My opinion is that they should be at least suspended right now.

Please do not cast me as someone who is defending Israel in all it does. I am seriously pissed at them and have been for some time. That was not the question. I answered the question. People obviously do not like my answers but as yet nobody has refuted a thing I said. Care to try?

[Dagoth Ur]

I refuted all the very stupid things you said: like Israel being an underdog (I guess the US was the underdog in Vietnam too lol) oh and that really fucking dumb statement calling Israel a "first nation" as though their lot is anything like what Amerindians experienced.

But yeah nobody has refuted anything you've said.

[noemon]

Very true. But Turkey is NOT a very good or reliable partner. It is moving out of the NATO sphere of interest and may one day lose membership. My opinion is that they should be at least suspended right now.

Please do not cast me as someone who is defending Israel in all it does. I am seriously pissed at them and have been for some time. That was not the question. I answered the question. People obviously do not like my answers but as yet nobody has refuted a thing I said. Care to try?

I do not really care why you support Israel or what kind of narrative you construe to defend that support, I only care about your claims and I did refute both of your claims that Muslim countries cannot be allies when Turkey is an official NATO ally while Israel isn't and Turkey has been an integral part of European politics for centuries in fact, I also refuted your claim that Christians are better off under Israel than under the Muslims. I do not see any other argument of yours, that of underdogs and overdogs is not an actual argument just a narrativistic tidbit, however if you want to pretend that the people who are brutally occupying, demolishing the homes of others and refuse people their dignity are underdogs compared to their victims, then sure pretend, I will address it if you actually provide an example towards that effect.