The Palestinians are winning the propaganda war - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Moderator: PoFo Middle-East Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#1745514
Israel is grown hard by our incomprehension of its rights and fears, and Hamas and Hizbollah are grown illusioned by our sympathy for theirs.

Try telling people living in range of the rockets Hamas is still firing into Israeli towns and cities – I say to those who cry foul or "disproportion" – that they have not died in sufficient numbers yet to equalise the world's compassion. Try telling them to wait until their casualties make better television.

Howard Jacobson: The Palestinians might be winning the propaganda war, but at what cost?

Israel could not have done other than it is doing, but that does not make it right

Saturday, 3 January 2009

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 23724.html

Here's a question. Who said, about whom, "It is a shameful spectacle to see how the whole democratic world is oozing sympathy for the poor tormented Xs, but remains hard hearted and obdurate when it comes to helping them"?


Answer: Hitler. Which makes the poor tormented Xs, of course, the Jews. He liked a joke, Hitler. He saw the funny side of things. In this instance what he was seeing the funny side of was the Evian conference called by Roosevelt in 1938 to address the issue of resettling refugees from Europe, the majority of them Jews. By any standards the conference failed. America insisted its quotas were already liberal enough. Britain said it was not "a country of immigration". And the German papers exulted, "Jews for sale – Who wants them? No One." Only Hitler managed an observation that could by any stretch of the imagination be called moral. But then it's easy to take a high satiric tone about the world's empty gestures of compassion.

Were I a Palestinian living in Gaza right now, and wondering if I might live to see another day, I would be just as scornful. So many friends, so little help.

Of the countless tragedies which have befallen humanity since that conference in Evian, the confining of Palestinians to hellhole refugee camps ranks high. Israel should without doubt have done better. Shown more imagination and magnanimity as victors in no matter how many wars it was made to fight, been more courageous, attended less to its own fanatic religious minorities. Zionism was intended to disburden Jews of religiosity, not find another forum for it. But it was up to the Arab world to do better still. It closed its doors as firmly as America and Britain did in 1938. Defeat and dispossession, whatever the circumstances, leave men bitter. But freedom to move and find a world elsewhere can alleviate some of the misery. Better to be an exile than a prisoner. And there should have been a whole brave new world for Palestinians to move freely in and, yes, if that was what they wanted, imagine their return, just as Jews had imagined theirs for centuries. But the closed borders with Israel were closed borders with Arab states as well.

As propaganda, it has worked splendidly. The festering sore of Gaza and the West Bank has disfigured Israel's reputation. Who, outside of America, has a good word to say for Israel now? In this country infants in their prams lisp anti-Zionist slogans. But what good has this propaganda done the Palestinians? What single advantage has accrued to them as a consequence of those millions and millions of gallons of oozed sympathy?

The lesson should be that it never helps to misunderstand or simplify a complex situation. Don Quixote teaches the harm that misapplied kindness always does. The well-meaning knight blunders into the middle of events the historical whys and wherefores of which he grasps nothing and then rides away on Rocinante leaving everything more problematic than it was before. Don Quixote is a comedy bordering on a tragedy. Those who demonstrate outside the Israeli embassy, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, apartheid South Africa, or the Hunnic empire at its most savage and rapacious – the quick to be disgusted or enraged, the ill-taught and the ill-teaching, who do not know where else to wear their consciences but on their sleeves – are similarly comic bordering on tragic. People are ridiculous when they perform actions automatically, say what you know they are going to say, and believe in the moral value of their own tears. Self-righteousness, as Dickens and Ben Jonson knew, is savagely preposterous. The tragedy lies in the waste of human energy, and in its failure to produce anything but the opposite of what it intends.

If the ultimate aim of those who would sooner express contempt for Israel than breathe is the cessation of hostilities, or even the cessation of Israel, they have little to show for their efforts. Israel is grown hard by our incomprehension of its rights and fears, and Hamas and Hizbollah are grown illusioned by our sympathy for theirs.

Tragic to behold, and yet a sense of the tragic is precisely what we lack. Oh, we do lamentation; it would appear to be in weeping and wailing – half the time over matters of no more importance than whether we are going out of a dance competition – that the 21st century has found itself. Ours is a society forever on the brink of tears. But we have no imagination of catastrophe as ovewhelmingly beyond and above us, of suffering and sorrow as inevitable or foreordained, determined by the discordant music of the planets, or in the giving and withholding of the gods. We do not, or we will not grasp that there exist differences which are eternal and intractable, needs that will never be satisfied or reconciled. Someone is always to blame in our understanding of human affairs, some politician, some social group, some country. David Hare is our dramatic poet of choice, whereas we need Aeschylus or the author of the Book of Job.

Once we walked through the valley of the shadow of the death, now we go on marches and demos and write letters to the editor. We cannot grieve for our fellow men without pointing a finger. Politics has overtaken metaphysics, and more often than not it is the politics of the simpleton.

It is easy to understand how we got to this. Liberalism promised an end to all our ills, but television nightly shows the same cruel, unequal world. We cannot bear the slaughter. Someone must pay. But is it beyond us to feel and think at the same time? I play the blame game myself. Try telling people living in range of the rockets Hamas is still firing into Israeli towns and cities – I say to those who cry foul or "disproportion" – that they have not died in sufficient numbers yet to equalise the world's compassion. Try telling them to wait until their casualties make better television. But I know the rocket firers believe they too have a score to settle, so back and back we go into the retaliation logic – "we will tear the Zionist enemy into pieces of flesh" is Hamas's latest stirring promise to its people – of a conflict too obdurate and ancient to disentangle.

Israel could not have done other than it is doing, but that makes its action neither right nor wise. Rightness and wisdom are sometimes nowhere to be found. Israel has walked into another PR trap because there is nowhere else to go. But what have the Palestinians walked into? Tragedy, nothing less.
By sploop!
#1747887
Is this going to be another one of those threads where you attempt to blame stuff on the Arabs? In this case, it sounds like you are saying that the Palestinians are responsible for the way the world sees Israel - aggressive, unsympathetic, thieving. I'm sorry to have to report to you that actually, Israel is completely responsible for the way the world sees it. If Israel behaved a bit better, then I am sure it would not get the bad press it gets.
User avatar
By Igor Antunov
#1747949
Frankly I'd be surprised if the victim wasn't winning the hearts and minds of people.
User avatar
By Fasces
#1747999
The Israeli government wins where it counts - other governments.

Let the democratic socialists cry over the spilled blood all they want - doesn't change a damn thing.
User avatar
By Nattering Nabob
#1748004
The Palestinians are winning the propaganda war



Let them eat propaganda.
User avatar
By W01f
#1748311
The Israeli government wins where it counts - other governments.

That would be the case regardless. I don't get why Israel hasn't nuked the place yet.
User avatar
By Igor Antunov
#1748337
That would be the case regardless. I don't get why Israel hasn't nuked the place yet.


Which government besides the US actually supports israel's actions? A handful at most.

The rest show disdain or outright hostility. Yep good support right there.
User avatar
By War Angel
#1748491
Meh, I don't mind letting them win the 'propaganda war', because that's all they'll ever win.. :)
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1749053
About those poor, Israeli Jews, Dempsey wrote:Try telling them to wait until their casualties make better television.

"Their casualties" have made some of the best television ever produced, Dempsey.

So I don't really get your point at all. You seem to be arguing against your thread title here.
User avatar
By pikachu
#1749392
The Palestinians are winning the propaganda war

I still sympathize more with Israel, so I guess they should try harder.
By Maas
#1749410
Try telling people living in range of the rockets Hamas is still firing into Israeli towns and cities – I say to those who cry foul or "disproportion" – that they have not died in sufficient numbers yet to equalise the world's compassion. Try telling them to wait until their casualties make better television.

Try asking those people what they think about how they are picking the fruits of ethnic cleansing and what they actually have done to show that acknowledgment in some way.
By SpiderMonkey
#1751420
Why should we be sympathetic to a nation using fighter jets against people armed only with homemade rockets? The author tries to get us to shed tears for Israeli civilians whilst ignoring Palestinian civilians, showing his true colours and his support for the concept of forcibly altering the demographics of the region.
User avatar
By Donna
#1751430
Igor Antunovic wrote:Which government besides the US actually supports israel's actions? A handful at most.

The rest show disdain or outright hostility. Yep good support right there.


You won't hear of other governments calling Cast Lead a massacre, at least ones worthy of mention. The most safest thing to do politically at the moment is to call for a new 'cease-fire' or an end to all 'hostilities'. Behind these empty gestures is support for what Israel is doing because any government understands the primacy of a nation's security. Bleeding hearts do not.
User avatar
By Todd D.
#1751732
Why should we be sympathetic to a nation using fighter jets against people armed only with homemade rockets? The author tries to get us to shed tears for Israeli civilians whilst ignoring Palestinian civilians, showing his true colours and his support for the concept of forcibly altering the demographics of the region.

Lesson 1 in warfare: When you start a fight, you lose the right to complain about how the other side chooses to respond.

"Proportionality" is a laughable concept that states you're only allowed to respond with the same means that those that attacked you used. It'd be like saying NATO can only wage war against the Taliban until Afghanistan suffered 3,000 casualties, since that's all America lost during 9/11. It's goofy as hell.

The fact that Palestine was / is ill equipped for the repercussions of their actions is more a lesson in how poorly thought out their attacks were than it is the morality of the way that Israel has chosen to respond. I have tremendous sympathy for those dead in Gaza, but I'm not stupid enough to blame Israel for their deaths. Their deaths can be blamed on one party and one party only: Hamas. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Anything else is just plain ignorance.
User avatar
By MB.
#1751750
This is not a historical question. If you wish to discuss the historical causes of the dispute surrounding the land of Palestine take it to the history forum.
User avatar
By Todd D.
#1751751
How did the Palestinians start it? Israel 'started it' when they invaded and occupied land that someone else was living on.

Presuming that history starts the day your Granddad was born, that's correct. For those of us that AREN'T uber-Young Earth Creationists, however, it goes beyond that.

I agree with MB. Israel exists, get over it, we're discussing the current crisis. Firing rockets in to another sovereign nation is an act of War, and as such you don't get to complain when that sovereign nation responds, ESPECIALLY when you are fully aware of said nation's capabilities.
By Dempsey
#1751832
Igor Antunovic wrote:
Which government besides the US actually supports israel's actions? A handful at most.

The rest show disdain or outright hostility. Yep good support right there.


You're right but as long as America has Israel's back, then even the opinion's of the other heavyweights like Russia and China count for nothing. And the USA is the ONLY country that has the power to make Isreal stop.



SpiderMonkey
Why should we be sympathetic to a nation using fighter jets against people armed only with homemade rockets? The author tries to get us to shed tears for Israeli civilians whilst ignoring Palestinian civilians, showing his true colours and his support for the concept of forcibly altering the demographics of the region.


Gaza deserves better but, if you stand by whilst your own side shoots at the other side's civilians, don’t whine when the other side shoots back. Perhaps a little better behaviour and then they would be right to expect decent treatment but to whine about being bitten after repeated warnings about pulling the tigers tail.

Egyptian paper: Hamas leaders partially responsible for Gaza assault

By Yoav Stern,

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050959.html

An editorial published in the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram on Monday argues that the Hamas leadership, who kept silent as Palestinian militants fired rockets at Israel, is partially to blame for the Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip, which has killed at least 300 Palestinians in the last three days.

"If you can't kill the wolf, don't pull its tail" says the article.

"Palestinian officials who do not want peace and seek empty heroism did not take Egypt's warnings seriously," says the article. "The day of the Israeli foreign minister's visit to Egypt, the militants sabotaged mediation efforts to reach a cease-fire agreement by firing 60 rockets at Israel."


As usual it is the bystanders who get the return message. Unfortunately that's what happens in war. From a soldier point of view like most 'rules' drawn up by those who have not fought, the proportionality bit cannot be applied in some dark alley when the fighting is for reak. Remember British troops level houses in Basra when things turn ugly there. Not mention NATO action against Serbia in March 1999.
Last edited by Dempsey on 08 Jan 2009 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
By Falx
#1751998
Lesson 1 in warfare: When you start a fight, you lose the right to complain about how the other side chooses to respond.


Bawww, we have all these shiny weapons and every time we drop them on some brown skinned people there is an outrage. Sorry Todd, world has moved on. We don't like to see thousands or millions of people killed for no reason, get used to it and be thankful for it because when you loose your hegemony, any trillion dollar deficit now, it would mean that you won't become a colony of China.
By sploop!
#1752020
Todd D: When you start a fight, you lose the right to complain about how the other side chooses to respond.

What about when the other side starts the fight? Maybe Israel has no right to complain that Hamas resists the occupation and land theft and murder and starvation of the people of Palestine? Actually, what you are saying, but dressed up in a pretty frock, is 'Might is Right'.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1752036
Todd D wrote:Lesson 1 in warfare: When you start a fight, you lose the right to complain about how the other side chooses to respond.

Yes, but then there's Lesson 2: When you're a powerful state, it's easy to use "war" as an excuse to grab more land, and it's easy to frame the other side as having "started it."

The Nazis did this frequently. They were always invading countries because these countries had shot a German or two. It's classic Machiavelli.

And it was also debunked.

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

will putin´s closest buddy Gennady Timchenko be […]

https://youtu.be/URGhMw1u7MM?si=YzcCHXcH9e-US9mv […]

Xi Jinping: "vladimir, bend down even lower, […]