[Spike Spiegel]

The Dispossessed a book by Ursula le Guin

The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia is a 1974 utopian science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin, set in the same fictional universe as that of The Left Hand of Darkness (the Hainish Cycle). The book won the Nebula Award in 1974,[1] both the Hugo and Locus Awards in 1975,[2] and received a nomination for the John W. Campbell Memorial Award in 1975

The Dispossessed looks into the mechanisms that may be developed by an anarchist society, but also the dangers of centralization and bureaucracy that might easily take over such society without the continuation of revolutionary ideology. Part of its power is that it gives a spectrum of fairly well-developed characters, who illustrate many types of personalities, all educated in an environment that measures people not by what they own, but by what they can do, and how they relate to other human beings. Possibly the best example of this is the character of Takver, the hero's partner, who exemplifies many virtues: loyalty, love of life and living things, perseverance, and desire for a true partnership with another person.

Wikipedia

In the book there is a planet Urras (much like our own with A-Io being USA and Thu being USSR) with a big, planet-like,habitable moon Anarres. On this Urras there is a group of anarchist revolutionaries (Odoists) who want to change the society. So government finds a solution to their problem and in an agreement with Odoists sends them to a moon Anarres where they build there own anarchist society.

Has anyone read this book? I'm interested in discussing some ideas and problems from this book with some anarchists who read it..
I think it's a good representation of how anarchists envision anarchist society should look like and difficulties it may encounter. It helped me understand ideas of anarchism and why it would be a preferable choice to capitalist society. I recommend it to anyone who doesn't like reading philosophical books, but is interested in how anarchist society should function.
Does anyone know in what type of anarchism do they live in? I think it's something like anarcho-communism.

[Meslocusist]

I read the book and found it quite good, and also fairly convincing as to the workability of anarchism.

One small correction, it's not Odoism, but Odonianism.

The communism described in the book is Anarcho-Communism potentially almost as pure as it can go, although it does function in some ways as social criticism for a society that does not yet exist. It is not entirely anarcho-communist because over the 170 years of the Anarchist society on Anarres, some bureaucracy has begun to build up, and some of their freedoms have diminished. Shevek (the protagonist) actually mentions this when referring to the famine (Anarres is a dry world, and at one point there is a famine that is a severe crisis), and how you can't really refuse a posting anymore.

It just so happens that I recently wrote a summary of The Dispossessed here on pofo, and if anyone's interested:

As a fictional book I recently read, The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin*, said, "To create theft create property; To create crime create laws". I think that this goes deeper than saying that without laws it is impossible to do something illegal- Take, for example, the Misery Index, which you may already know. You get it by adding inflation to unemployment, and according to a very short section in the wiki article, it correlates very strongly with crime rate. There was also a paper on that topic that I found through google, but it was behind a pay-wall so I can't give specifics (IE, I'm not willing to pay for it). Anyway, there would be no unemployment in an anarchist society (Since unemployment is defined as people who are looking for work and can't find it), and no inflation since there is no money. Behaviors currently defined as criminal would thus be less common.
...
*As I said up there, The Dispossessed is a novel of science fiction by Ursula K. Leguin. There is an An-Com society that is formed on the Moon of a world that orbited another star (This Moon is habitable without a spacesuit etc.), from the An-Com elements on the main world, which is essentially an analogue to the Cold-War era Earth. The story takes place 175 years after the An-Com society was formed, and it describes what life is like in that society. I was struck primarily by the fact that the society described seemed entirely workable.

[Spike Spiegel]

Great, I didn't think anyone would replay!

One small correction, it's not Odoism, but Odonianism.

Ah, ok! I read Croatian translation.

Do you think problems that developed over time with society on Anarres are bound to happen in an Anarchist society. Would there be pressure to conform to society and would there be restrains on individuals like there was on Shavek and he's friend (I forgot he's name-the one that went crazy).


Do you think Anarchist society would ever be possible?
It seems to me that for creating Anarchist society you need a large consensus among the people, like they had on their planet before you could transform society. Creating such society in our world, without consensus, would require violent revolution that would destroy ideals behind Anarchism.
I believe that was one of main reasons 20th century Socialist countries never worked. They require high level of consensus and morality to work. Since they didn't have this they collapsed from within. They could never reach their goal cause revolution ate moral fabric of communism. By the time they were done they lost a touch with communist idea.

At one point Shevek refers to this when he's talking to Chifoilisk (from Thu/USSR)

The state of Thu is more centralized than the state of A-Io. One power structure
controls all, the government, administration, police, army, education, laws, trades,
manufactures…You fear we [Odonians] might bring back the revolution, the old
one, the real one, the revolution for justice which you began and then stopped
half-way. Here in A-Io they fear me less because they have forgotten the
revolution. They don’t believe in it anymore, they think if people can possess
enough things they will be content to live in prison. But I will not believe that. I
want the walls down. I want solidarity, human solidarity.

[Meslocusist]

Ah, ok! I read Croatian translation.

As a bit of an extraneous matter, I wonder if it comes off differently in Croatian. As the book notes without ever explicitly saying, meaning can change with language. As Sadik says: "You can share the handkerchief I use", whereas Ini (Pae's son- or maybe Oiie and maybe daughter) might say "You can have my handkerchief". This is actually a pretty big difference, and can be taken even farther: English (And I would hazard a guess that the same is true of Croatian) developed in the Middle ages from languages that were much older, and probably has roots going back thousands of years. There are some concepts that just can't be expressed in some languages- for example, to borrow from the book "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"- how would you express the idea of something that you went into the future in a time machine and saw was going to happen, but because you knew it didn't? What tense would you use?

Perhaps English and Property work together in the same way.

Do you think problems that developed over time with society on Anarres are bound to happen in an Anarchist society. Would there be pressure to conform to society and would there be restrains on individuals like there was on Shavek and he's friend (I forgot he's name-the one that went crazy).

Tirin, you mean?

Bound to happen? No. While Anarres is very anarcho-communist in nature, I actually don't think it quite went all the way. It is certainly close, but I think that for anything to be truly Anarcho-Communist, it can't have any permanent institution. In that sense, PDC (Production-Distribution-Co-ordination, don't know if it would be the same in your copy) is not Anarcho-Communist, and as you see it doesn't work with it- it is slowly becoming state-like. With the advent of the computer, PDC is largely unnecessary, a forum or something could work well to put available work out there, and because the only human involvement would be with the people who run the computers and keep them updated, the events that happened with Tirin probably wouldn't happen.

People do nasty things sometimes- and clearly the Annaresti society isn't flexible enough when Shevek lives. I think that what happened to Tirin could happen, but I also think that if society were more flexible, and if PDC did not exist, it would be less likely. In some senses, PDC has come to exist because of the Urrasti shipyards- someone needs to decide, to command that someone put things on the freighters.

Do you think Anarchist society would ever be possible?
It seems to me that for creating Anarchist society you need a large consensus among the people, like they had on their planet before you could transform society. Creating such society in our world, without consensus, would require violent revolution that would destroy ideals behind Anarchism.
I believe that was one of main reasons 20th century Socialist countries never worked. They require high level of consensus and morality to work. Since they didn't have this they collapsed from within. They could never reach their goal cause revolution ate moral fabric of communism. By the time they were done they lost a touch with communist idea.

I very much think that an Anarchist (Anarcho-Communist, Anarcho-capitalism is a very bad idea, I think, if you abolish the state but keep property rights you end up with a corrupt dictatorship) place (Community implies exclusivity, exclusivity implies property, property is not anarcho-communism), and it will be stable too as long as you make it somewhere far away from capitalism. Far, far, far away. That will also ensure that the people willing to come are only the people who are willing to own nothing.

Socialism as practiced holds over some of the problems inherent to capitalism, like ownership. Certainly some degree of state intervention is beneficial as compared to total capitalism, but I think Anarcho-Communism is better than both.

I certainly agree that violent revolution would destroy things. That's why, in all probability Anarchism will not exist on Earth for thousands of years if all goes well, even if every space colony goes Anarchist.

[Spike Spiegel]

As a bit of an extraneous matter, I wonder if it comes off differently in Croatian. As the book notes without ever explicitly saying, meaning can change with language. As Sadik says: "You can share the handkerchief I use", whereas Ini (Pae's son- or maybe Oiie and maybe daughter) might say "You can have my handkerchief". This is actually a pretty big difference, and can be taken even farther: English (And I would hazard a guess that the same is true of Croatian) developed in the Middle ages from languages that were much older, and probably has roots going back thousands of years. There are some concepts that just can't be expressed in some languages- for example, to borrow from the book "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"- how would you express the idea of something that you went into the future in a time machine and saw was going to happen, but because you knew it didn't? What tense would you use?

Perhaps English and Property work together in the same way.

I don't think it does sound differently in Croatian. There is a clear distinction on how they talk in Pravic (specially constructed language on Annares) and how they talk on Urras. For example they don't use words for possession (they never say "he is my son" on Croatian "on je moj sin" ). I think they did a good job in translation, cause this is 4th-5th translation.

Tirin, you mean?

Bound to happen? No. While Anarres is very anarcho-communist in nature, I actually don't think it quite went all the way. It is certainly close, but I think that for anything to be truly Anarcho-Communist, it can't have any permanent institution. In that sense, PDC (Production-Distribution-Co-ordination, don't know if it would be the same in your copy) is not Anarcho-Communist, and as you see it doesn't work with it- it is slowly becoming state-like. With the advent of the computer, PDC is largely unnecessary, a forum or something could work well to put available work out there, and because the only human involvement would be with the people who run the computers and keep them updated, the events that happened with Tirin probably wouldn't happen.

People do nasty things sometimes- and clearly the Annaresti society isn't flexible enough when Shevek lives. I think that what happened to Tirin could happen, but I also think that if society were more flexible, and if PDC did not exist, it would be less likely. In some senses, PDC has come to exist because of the Urrasti shipyards- someone needs to decide, to command that someone put things on the freighters.

I think PDC is actually a good idea for that time. They had to have some system that could tell them where they are needed. In time when the book was written it was a futuristic idea. There is part I thought was funny, when Shevek explains how computers quickly tells you where you are needed. It only takes 5 minutes. It todays world it takes 5 seconds, but in those times that was very advanced. Today everyone has a computer while in those days they needed a special organization that would distribute jobs.
Also I would say a lot of problems they face comes from environment on Annares. Many problems that occurred wouldn't have happened if they were on fertile planet.

Early Anarchist societies (I don't mean Anarcho-capitalist) will have mechanism for expulsion of individuals who abuse the system (such people existed also on Annars). I don't think Shevek was abusing the system, cause he was a hard worker (he worked in the field and where ever he was needed) but his work as theoretical physicist wasn't socially useful which society didn't accept.
So he found himself on the outskirts of society. I think such problems could easily occur in any anarchist society, especially in societies that live in inhospitable environment where manual labor is needed.

I very much think that an Anarchist (Anarcho-Communist, Anarcho-capitalism is a very bad idea, I think, if you abolish the state but keep property rights you end up with a corrupt dictatorship) place (Community implies exclusivity, exclusivity implies property, property is not anarcho-communism), and it will be stable too as long as you make it somewhere far away from capitalism. Far, far, far away. That will also ensure that the people willing to come are only the people who are willing to own nothing.

Socialism as practiced holds over some of the problems inherent to capitalism, like ownership. Certainly some degree of state intervention is beneficial as compared to total capitalism, but I think Anarcho-Communism is better than both.

I certainly agree that violent revolution would destroy things. That's why, in all probability Anarchism will not exist on Earth for thousands of years if all goes well, even if every space colony goes Anarchist.

So you agree there isn't much chance of larger Anarchist society on earth? Only option would be buying large piece of land (hint New Zealand) and moving there or having a peaceful revolution in some country. You would also need a non-interference agreement with other countries for this to work.

[Meslocusist]

I don't think it does sound differently in Croatian. There is a clear distinction on how they talk in Pravic (specially constructed language on Annares) and how they talk on Urras. For example they don't use words for possession (they never say "he is my son" on Croatian "on je moj sin" ). I think they did a good job in translation, cause this is 4th-5th translation.

Well, to some extent there is a problem with all translations, because no translation can be entirely faithful to the original, but sounds like yours was fine and I suppose the book isn't particularly lyrical anyway.

I think PDC is actually a good idea for that time. They had to have some system that could tell them where they are needed. In time when the book was written it was a futuristic idea. There is part I thought was funny, when Shevek explains how computers quickly tells you where you are needed. It only takes 5 minutes. It todays world it takes 5 seconds, but in those times that was very advanced. Today everyone has a computer while in those days they needed a special organization that would distribute jobs.

Maybe for the time, but as Shevek shows it does eventually begin to betray the original idea behind Odonianism, so given modern technology a Wiki-like way to show what jobs are available is certainly workable and does not require any bureaucracy.

Also I would say a lot of problems they face comes from environment on Annares. Many problems that occurred wouldn't have happened if they were on fertile planet.

Well, basically any ideology could work in a garden of eden. State Communism, Capitalism, Fascism, and Anarcho-Communism. However, clearly the famine is detrimental to Anarchism because it generates some degree of propertarianism and coercion.

Early Anarchist societies (I don't mean Anarcho-capitalist) will have mechanism for expulsion of individuals who abuse the system (such people existed also on Annares). I don't think Shevek was abusing the system, cause he was a hard worker (he worked in the field and where ever he was needed) but his work as theoretical physicist wasn't socially useful which society didn't accept.
So he found himself on the outskirts of society. I think such problems could easily occur in any anarchist society, especially in societies that live in inhospitable environment where manual labor is needed.

Well, hopefully the people who came would be only the kind of people willing to live like an-coms. I admit that this would not be universally so, so hopefully they would be weeded out as time progressed people would be born there so they would find themselves better adapted to that society.

So you agree there isn't much chance of larger Anarchist society on earth? Only option would be buying large piece of land (hint New Zealand) and moving there or having a peaceful revolution in some country. You would also need a non-interference agreement with other countries for this to work.

I agree that it is not likely in the medium or near term on Earth.