The true Character of Anarchy - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The 'no government' movement.
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By Suska
#13162644
Anarchy will never answer to a minarchist description from this side of the event because it requires first that the people involved cooperatively embrace Anarchy first, not grudgingly accept hierarchy dragged by the ear into the region of Anarchy.

No, it isn't true that all organization is hierarchical and therefore Anarchy is disorganized. The Anarchist stands full force against the middle-manager that swaggers into work, insults employees and doesn't do their job, but if management were necessary and it entailed organizing work-shifts and making sure everything is stocked without all the bullshit stupid people get into their head about "I can fire you, but you can't fire me" then its fair enough organization.
By DubiousDan
#13162993
Suska:

Anarchy will never answer to a minarchist description from this side of the event because it requires first that the people involved cooperatively embrace Anarchy first, not grudgingly accept hierarchy dragged by the ear into the region of Anarchy.

No, it isn't true that all organization is hierarchical and therefore Anarchy is disorganized. The Anarchist stands full force against the middle-manager that swaggers into work, insults employees and doesn't do their job, but if management were necessary and it entailed organizing work-shifts and making sure everything is stocked without all the bullshit stupid people get into their head about "I can fire you, but you can't fire me" then its fair enough organization.


Me:
Words are tools, but can become traps. The name is not the named.
In avoiding the name, we often avoid the named, and that can lead to error.

Your meaning is not clear to me, but that is probably due to my senility. I tend to think of the hierarchy of ability as a natural component of human social interaction and not only compatible with Anarchism but essential to its success. Man is a social animal, and cooperative effort is natural to the human condition. In order for it to be most effective, cooperative effort must utilize the group’s resources to their maximum efficiency. Therefore, it follows that the resolution of problems be done utilizing those of the greatest ability. However, ability in its true sense, and not dictated by some artificial standard. True ability is task related. Given a rankles social order, the determination of ability will be made within a group, and voluntary cooperation will follow. However, social inertia can develop, and the assignment of ability can be established independent of task. This is, of course, a social defect, and must be guarded against. However, that is not a true hierarchy of ability. A true hierarchy of ability is task related and takes into consideration the nature of the group and the nature of the task.
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By Suska
#13164729
What I would like to understand is essential anarchy reduced to its final irreducible state.
At some point along the way it won't be politics, it will be whatever it is you call what people do for themselves in order to not be assholes, maturity, enlightenment, etc. The politics are a symptom of that at any rate, always have been.

Your meaning is not clear to me
Minarchy/Libertarianism are Anarchic, but should they take hold they would prepare the way for something truer to Anarchic principles. But at some point its got to be 'all bets are off' and at that point we can start making real contracts that don't require lawyers and insurance etc. Its not Anarchy to spend all your time fighting the thugs and assholes trying to pry their grip on your throat off, its not anarchy that they relax their grip. When we get it right it will be because no one has any real interest in tyrannizing people anymore.
By DubiousDan
#13166787
Suska:
Minarchy/Libertarianism are Anarchic, but should they take hold they would prepare the way for something truer to Anarchic principles. But at some point its got to be 'all bets are off' and at that point we can start making real contracts that don't require lawyers and insurance etc. Its not Anarchy to spend all your time fighting the thugs and assholes trying to pry their grip on your throat off, its not anarchy that they relax their grip. When we get it right it will be because no one has any real interest in tyrannizing people anymore.

Me:
I have a problem with Libertarianism as Anarchic. It seems to me that they want civilization, but they want to ride free. They want the police and the army and roads, they just don’t want to be in the army or pay taxes.

As for Minarchy, that’s just another scheme to return to the 19th Century.

All wealth derives from the state. True property is the property that you have to prove is yours if you lose it. The stuff in your pockets, your computer, that sort of thing. As soon as a title is involved, the state is involved. The state keeps the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. That’s its function. All civilization consists of taking the harvest from the harvester and giving it to the elites.
Some elites manage their harvesters better than others. Failed states are the result of incompetent elites. You can judge a farmer by his farm and the elites from their states. You have states like Mexico and you have states like Norway. In both cases, the goal is to take from the harvester and give to the elites. However, in Norway, the harvesters are well cared for, in Mexico they reflect the incompetence of the elites.
Sometimes, the elites get so sloppy that the harvesters depose them and set up other elites. However, as long as you have civilization, you have elites, and of course, without the harvester, you don’t have anything.

I’m curious, do you think that we will just naturally evolve into anarchy?
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By Suska
#13167065
I dislike your use of the term civilization. Lets drop all this parasitic-elites talk - that isn't what defines civilization any more than being poor hunter-gatherers defines Anarchy. So in the first case your wrong in your terminology and its gonna mislead anything we do here. The whole 'just another scheme' attitude is pure laziness. Minarchy is a characterization of a political goal not a matter of nostalgia. You use Norway in association with Mexico and these are very different nations, plainly your model of whats going on is flawed. Libertarianism is relatively Anarchic, these are political issues which don't necessarily mean anything with regard to technology or amenities.

do you think that we will just naturally evolve into anarchy?
Thats how its done, thats how its been getting done, thats how were doing it and thats what needs to be done. When people are ready we'll take the next step, when people aren't ready we wait and profess it would be nice. We've been systematically taking force out of the equation of society for thousands of years, Anarchy is what we call it - what we're working towards. Its not nihilism, its not socialism, its not capitalism, its not a state, its not private, its just people cooperating and recognizing that we all have a role. Anarchy is the defining characteristic of all political Ideologies at their most idealized level of expression. It is to states what to a person would be a complete lack of habits and assumptions. The absence of tyranny.
By DubiousDan
#13167782
Suska:
I dislike your use of the term civilization. Lets drop all this parasitic-elites talk - that isn't what defines civilization any more than being poor hunter-gatherers defines Anarchy. So in the first case your wrong in your terminology and its gonna mislead anything we do here. The whole 'just another scheme' attitude is pure laziness. Minarchy is a characterization of a political goal not a matter of nostalgia. You use Norway in association with Mexico and these are very different nations, plainly your model of whats going on is flawed. Libertarianism is relatively Anarchic, these are political issues which don't necessarily mean anything with regard to technology or amenities.

Me:
Sadly, I think I will hang on to my concept of civilization. One does not lightly abandon the results of a half century’s labors. It doesn’t really matter, because the anarchy that I am discussing is not the anarchy that you are discussing. I wish you good fortune in the pursuit of your goal, whatever it is. As for the eventual triumph of your anarchy, who knows what political system will exist on the other side of the singularity.
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By Suska
#13168363
wait... You're saying you've studied the matter for 50 years and never read Proudhon or Chomsky? Your concept of civilization and Anarchy is the incorrect one. You've heard that the people who assassinated Lincoln and Kennedy were Anarchists and you never figured out that that was plain derogatory nonsense..? I'm telling you what political system will exist on the other side of the singularity, and since you still don't understand and you've given up its clear you aren't serious and you should stay in Gorky talking about movies.
By DubiousDan
#13168610
Suska:
wait... You're saying you've studied the matter for 50 years and never read Proudhon or Chomsky? Your concept of civilization and Anarchy is the incorrect one. You've heard that the people who assassinated Lincoln and Kennedy were Anarchists and you never figured out that that was plain derogatory nonsense..? I'm telling you what political system will exist on the other side of the singularity, and since you still don't understand and you've given up its clear you aren't serious and you should stay in Gorky talking about movies.

Me:
Did I say that? Damn, now why would I say that? I never figured out what? Actually I’ve never heard that either Kennedy or Lincoln were killed by anarchists. You’re telling me what political system will exist on the other side of the singularity? If you mean what I mean by singularity, then you are claiming Godhood. Sorry, I’m a Classical Taoist, we’re agnostic. Yes, I guess I’ve pretty much given up. The bit about Gorky and talking movies is a bit weird but I’m sure there’s an explanation there somewhere.
Since you mentioned Chomsky, I wonder if you meant libertarian socialism when you were talking about libertarianism? Those are two different philosophies. Also Anarcho-syndicalism is not Minarchy.

I may not agree with Noam Chomsky on everything, but I can’t think off hand of a public figure that I agree with more than him. Where you get your ideas is truly puzzling.
By DubiousDan
#13169101
Suska:
I dislike your use of the term civilization. Lets drop all this parasitic-elites talk - that isn't what defines civilization any more than being poor hunter-gatherers defines Anarchy. So in the first case your wrong in your terminology and its gonna mislead anything we do here. The whole 'just another scheme' attitude is pure laziness. Minarchy is a characterization of a political goal not a matter of nostalgia. You use Norway in association with Mexico and these are very different nations, plainly your model of whats going on is flawed. Libertarianism is relatively Anarchic, these are political issues which don't necessarily mean anything with regard to technology or amenities.

Me:
Got to thinking, rare activity for me. Looked back over my last two posts to you. Not particularly proud of them. Seems to me like you were trying to tell me something, and I just blew up. Not smart. If you are willing to give me a second chance, I would like to try again. To begin with, it’s true that our anarchies are different. Since you aren’t particularly interested in mine, why don’t I put it on a shelf and let it collect dust. Now, I’d like to hear about your anarchy. I’m not playing games, I mean it. OK, the civilization stuff is on the shelf in my anarchy.
So I’m wrong and I’m lazy, not unusual for me. My model is flawed, live with that. Can we go back over the Minarchy thing. Could you explain that to me? The nostalgia bit, that is.
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By Suska
#13169437
Sure. Leaving out also 'Singularity' which can be interpreted several ways.

As I understand it Proudhon is recognized as the first to call himself an Anarchist - because he called himself that where other people used the word only in the derogatory sense of someone who didn't like the government and had no better solution that to try and assassinate it. Thats how the word had been used and still is popularly, such as in the game Civilization which depicts Anarchy as a brief period of chaotic in-fighting.

"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."

Even a cursory review of Proudhon will show that instead he held it up as the ideal. Remember, he was a contemporary of Lenin (they were friends but had a falling out), and rejected violent means (rejected Lenin's revolution). So now that there was a term for a government of voluntary commonsense community people started seeing where it applied and it turned out it could apply strongly or weakly all over the place, for instance in anthropology circles talking about the way primitive tribes were and are.

Proudhon said, "Whoever lays his hand on me to govern me is a usurper and tyrant, and I declare him my enemy"

also:
...
"Then what are you?"
"I am an anarchist."
"Oh! I understand you; you speak satirically. This is a hit at the government."
"By no means. I have just given you my serious and well-considered profession of faith. Although a firm friend of order, I am (in the full force of the term) an anarchist.


So first of all there is a difference between "chaos and looting" as Anarchy - which is still Anarchy, but just like Democracy as "voting for selfish benefit and against disliked others" its also has its ideal and deliberate form.

Among the list of things the professed Anarchist believes in there are several common themes.

Voluntariness/mutuality/common-sense cooperation : necessary things where no one is forcing the matter, bureaucratizing (ritualizing/habitualizing) ... telling everyone what to do.

Chomsky doesn't say a lot and I think rightly leaves the matter fairly open - politics lends itself to both cynics and the OCD crowd who adore rulemaking so there's always someone around to say it won't work either because of (their opinion of) human nature or because they can't see what a blank rule book means. So there are usually two arguments for Anarchy attacking these points. 1) That human nature is capable of orderly Anarchy (we don't need to be told what to do) 2) That we would figure out what needed doing and do it as opposed to constructing or adopting a hierarchy of people who supposedly know these things, who would then hire managers and so on and eventually create a policy and law that everyone must live by. In Anarchy there's a lot of room for discretion, but it reduces every political question to what actual people need and want, to individual thought and conduct.

My position is not strange to any of these concepts of Anarchy, but I focus mainly on the fact that it rests on the individual rather than network of relationships. I say that what people who are not Anarchists want is basically OCD and ignorance because my opinion of human nature is that wherever it is not self-improving it is essentially incoherent. So, the only people who want a scaffold of rules are rule makers and the only people who accept rules are intellectually passive. These people use rules in the way an adolescent uses GI Joes and Barbies - as if this world were full of minions to be dressed up and ordered about. At any rate it comes down to whatever it is people do to avoid doing things they regret or get resented for - while at the same time getting things done. Doubt it as you like on whatever grounds its really just a matter of people not finding it very interesting to mess with other people because they can take care of themselves without pushing other people around. Everyone else is insane, but should they take it upon themselves to improve their lot with their given assets they would find that not only do they not need what other people have, but that as long as we're cooperating we all have more than we really need and the possibilities are enormous. Systems of cooperation depend on the cooperation - not on the system. At the point at which everyone is cooperative you can make a rule or not, but it doesn't have the same over-seer character. It should not generate a bureaucracy, it should not generate a hierarchy, if it does it is diverging from cooperation and must be reviewed on that basis, but generationally its always the same deal. There are no rules, people don't inherit laws from the previous generation, everything depends on the individual first and second on their degree and manner of cooperating.

Libertarian Minarchy is Anarchistic because it reduces rulership-clutter, that is; the confusion and disconnection brought on by overdeveloped bureaucracies. We might not know who to talk to, we might have forms to fill out, and ultimately they might get filed in the shredder. This is not cooperating.

There are other positive uses of the term civilization, famously, Gandhi, when asked about "Western Civilization" replied he thought it would be a good idea. To be civil is to operate with at least minimal degree of cooperativeness - to not kill people and take their stuff for instance. Your depictions of civilization as parasitic power structures describes the habitual and enforced form of civility, which is unnatural and tends toward the bureaucratic. But the question here is about people and human nature and social conduct which is wide open, but certainly enough - where people cooperate they benefit, where they don't they fight. Really, the highest form of civilization is voluntary cooperation. Not that you could depend on it habitually or that by it we are fed, but it all comes from what in psychology is called being 'social' and what is in philosophy being enlightened and is in pragmatic terms being of use to yourself in terms of happiness and cooperation with others.

"Anarchists are those who advocate the absence of the state, arguing that common sense would allow people to come together in agreement to form a functional society allowing for the participants to freely develop their own sense of morality, ethics or principled behaviour." - Wiki

There are permutations into political systems which we could talk about, Anarcho-syndicalism and the rest. There are permutation into philosophy which we could talk about, how to not be insane for instance. But Anarchy is first and primarily voluntary cooperative effort, as soon as it becomes a system Anarchists need to watch very carefully to avoid making it a habit or something imposed.

Beyond this review also sits the debate about whether or not any sort of approach to Anarchy is possible because either people are insane and don't realize the all-around benefit of an equality commonwealth, or because people are passive and can't stop hitting the Statism button over and over even though it always leads to the same results - its just like alcoholism, it makes people numb, it makes people surly and violent, it makes people selfish and unduly proud etc. Money isn't even an issue in Anarchy, if people go into an Anarchy with stratified wealth as we have today it either wouldn't be long before they'd invested it all - assuming they are decent Anarchists you wouldn't need to steal from them. All questions about how a system-less system would work depend on realizing the cooperation aspect. Once you have cooperation and insist on it being voluntary, then you can work out with what you have what you need and how to get it.

Minarchy is a characterization of a political goal not a matter of nostalgia.
We are not trying to return to the 19th century, but fulfill the timeless goals of all political progress. It isn't nostalgia. Far from it, Anarchy abandons all sorts of tradition.

Property and wealth in an Anarchy is meaningless except as a relative matter of nations and foreign trade. Internally, there's no need or want that a sane person can ask for that can't be accommodated somehow eventually provided cooperation. In political discussion we often speak of abundance as a far off goal, but we've had abundance for a long time, we just don't consider ourselves part of a equality commonwealth - which is all well and fine if what you want to do is devour your nation and move toward a civil war. When people get serious about having to live with each other with no wilderness to run to, with nukes in everyone's bunker, with the unrealized potential sitting right there in front of us, well we deserve what we make.

The issue boils down to one thing. Having studied Buddhism extensively I characterize it as enlightenment. Anarchy is the political expression of Nirvana. We want this not as a high aspiration, but as an end to suffering. If people can embrace a spiritual or at least ethical and productive path then some form of Anarchy will be the goal.
By DubiousDan
#13170032
Suska:
We are not trying to return to the 19th century, but fulfill the timeless goals of all political progress. It isn't nostalgia. Far from it, Anarchy abandons all sorts of tradition.

Me:
I think you mistook my meaning on the 19th Century part. The motive wasn’t nostalgia. However, my meaning isn’t really the relevant item. I took my definition of Minarchy from the Wiki. I won’t ask you to define Minarchy, because definitions are almost impossible when dealing with anything of complexity. However, I would like an idea as to the structure of a Minarchy.
I know, you said that structure wasn’t that important, and as a Taoist, I can understand that, but I need something to hang a hook on.

In Buddhism, truth is unknowable in verbal terms, at least as I understand it, but there is a structure of its pursuit. The Four Noble Truths and the Eight Manifest Steps outline a path towards truth.

This is what I mean by structure in relation to Minarchy.

By the way, I’m pretty much on board with what I understand so far. Not sure I understand a lot though. Words are slippery fish.
Oh, and thank you, I appreciate your time and effort. I think you gave me something of value. I will read it more than once, that I assure you.
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By Suska
#13170450
Suska wrote:In my neck of the woods Police have a thug-ring with a license to steal, how can I fight that? How can I not be a victim? The DEA can do what it wants to, they just process people, everyone's a pothead so its harvest season for them. Tell me how can I not live in fear? I do what I can but I don't know how to stand up to it, the only shining ray of hope is that people like me can band together and right now that means Libertarianism.
Minarchy would be nice, to start with take away the undue powers given to police, dismantle the DEA. We can talk about scaling back our military posture after our Police behave ethically. Right now its not a matter of the government not having enough powers but a matter of them abusing their powers, they have legal privileges which need to be revoked stemming from the war on drugs. I wouldn't mind a larger federal government if it took a hard stand against corruption and incompetence - I need to see some real results, and I doubt them. Maybe its just gonna have to get so bad that people have to fight, state governments need to be stronger, the Federal government needs to stop looting our currency... So on. Its not Anarchy I'm asking for, I took this for an opportunity to understand the character of Anarchy, which is a useful term in the realm of political theory, as is Minarchy, but it amounts to a reflection, "it is what you make it." When some people find they've got the run of the house they fill their pockets. Their are worse sorts though, who transform good people into victims. Those particular people are the problem, whatever office they hold.
By DubiousDan
#13173571
Suska:
Minarchy would be nice, to start with take away the undue powers given to police, dismantle the DEA. We can talk about scaling back our military posture after our Police behave ethically. Right now its not a matter of the government not having enough powers but a matter of them abusing their powers, they have legal privileges which need to be revoked stemming from the war on drugs. I wouldn't mind a larger federal government if it took a hard stand against corruption and incompetence -


Me:
This, as you know, is not anarchy. It seems to me that you are advocating good government. Good as defined by you. Do you want to keep our present political structure?

I haven’t been ignoring your post. I’ve been thinking it over.
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By Suska
#13174292
This, as you know, is not anarchy
it is and it isn't. The emphasis I place on individual conduct is a result of knowing what Anarchy really means. Even here on a dedicated political forum there are quite a few people playing dress up politics; accordingly its always the system's fault - which is a pernicious fallacy even within a flawed system. The system serves our needs or we should scrap it. Its not that I don't think there are any rules, but the rules are natural and intuitively learned. The Golden Rule, reciprocity, a good life etc, that's what the system must support, not bigger better faster more, or whats yours is mine, or just do what I say. And my gravest curse is reserved for people who victimize each other from a position of authority. America's current political structure is an old habit painfully exploited. What we need is activism and community, not organization by tax money.

If all this era's talk about ecology amounts to anything it ought to be that an economy is like an ecology and lions don't commit genocide, if they did they'd starve. That's what ethics is all about, generating an environment in which an enterprise can occur. If the businesses and police can't exercise some restraint, if the politicians can cope, if the people are too wasted there isn't any political structure here - not really. Just a semblance of order.
By DubiousDan
#13175066
Suska:
it is and it isn't. The emphasis I place on individual conduct is a result of knowing what Anarchy really means. Even here on a dedicated political forum there are quite a few people playing dress up politics; accordingly its always the system's fault - which is a pernicious fallacy even within a flawed system. The system serves our needs or we should scrap it. Its not that I don't think there are any rules, but the rules are natural and intuitively learned. The Golden Rule, reciprocity, a good life etc, that's what the system must support, not bigger better faster more, or whats yours is mine, or just do what I say. And my gravest curse is reserved for people who victimize each other from a position of authority. America's current political structure is an old habit painfully exploited. What we need is activism and community, not organization by tax money.

Me:
OK, so this is your anarchy. Only I don’t understand it. In a way in reminds me of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Revolution is individual. If everybody gets better, the world gets better. No problem with that. However, he’s dead. The World doesn’t seem to be getting better.
I don’t believe the system serves my needs. I’m quite willing to scrap it. There are thousands of police and hundreds of thousands of soldiers who say I can’t scrap it. I don’t see anybody on my side.
The rules are natural and intuitively learned. Maybe, but I apparently haven’t learned them. If they are that easy to learn, then you should be able to teach me. I’m not totally into dementia yet, maybe a couple of months more.

I’ve heard a lot about what the system should be. What I’m a little short on is how do we get there? Activism and community sounds nice, and I’m sure there are people who are doing that. However, I don’t see the social order getting better. Maybe that’s my problem. I can’t see. OK, so is the system getting better?
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By Suska
#13175489
Good People are bad weather to Bad People whereas Bad People are a tragedy and a crisis to Good People, if its as you say, and I don't deny it may not look like much, then lets be like the weather and wear ignorance down - we'll pass this to our children if we can't get a grip on it ourselves. I don't think of it as a Revolution, when people suffer - Good or Bad - the world is a little less interesting.

Coco, a neighbor's goat was chained to a tree over a ground hornet hole, she stood there for days twitching as they stung her, she lost 20 pounds before anyone noticed this. She didn't complain but clearly some conditions are unhealthy - she must have been miserable, there are millions of hornets in that hole. If we are goats and must do what we're told, we can only do it so well as we are willing to live, right? I'm not talking now about morality, it just isn't practical to make people (or goats) you depend on suffer, even if its accidental. If you're conscientious then you notice after a day or two, if not your goat dies.

If Europeans are happy and Americans are not it doesn't matter how well Americans collect taxes or steal they will have less and Europeans and the world will wonder where this pride in America comes from. Morality is written into the world like this, as certain as gravity and time. So the question needs to be posed, do we want to feel confident again? Then yes, it will take a lot of individuals doing what they love to do, and what keeps them healthy, and not having to fight wolves every time they go to town with their love.

I doubt you're so senile or cynical as you make out to be, and I don't think what I'm proposing is unusual. Its just the way of things. Its how we came out of the Dark Ages, its how we reached the Space Age, its what we need to go further - there isn't an end to that. My main contention today against what our government is doing is typified by Nixon, the idea that if you're government plays hardball no one can take them down... But while we suffer hardly anything gets done too. If too many people have alcoholism and the hard-drugs disease we're not going to do anything nice until we treat their disease, this idea that some harsher conditioning will fix the problem is adding to the misery because we have other diseases too. That's where this 'change' needs to start, because thats the hornet's nest we're standing on.
By DubiousDan
#13177517
Suska:
I doubt you're so senile or cynical as you make out to be, and I don't think what I'm proposing is unusual. Its just the way of things. Its how we came out of the Dark Ages, its how we reached the Space Age, its what we need to go further - there isn't an end to that. My main contention today against what our government is doing is typified by Nixon, the idea that if you're government plays hardball no one can take them down... But while we suffer hardly anything gets done too. If too many people have alcoholism and the hard-drugs disease we're not going to do anything nice until we treat their disease, this idea that some harsher conditioning will fix the problem is adding to the misery because we have other diseases too. That's where this 'change' needs to start, because thats the hornet's nest we're standing on.

Me:
I hope your right on the senile part, as for the cynical. Cynical is not the absence of denial. It’s seems to me that you’ve bought onto the idea of progress. However, are you real clear on the destination?

Alright, I think I’m beginning to get some of it. Everybody’s problem is my problem. Yes, help the alcoholics and the addicts. I’m for that, stop beating on the victim. Sure, I’d like that. However every time there’s an election, I lose on anything like that. Punishment gets the votes, even when we can’t afford to pay for the punishment. I’ll buy that that has to change. The problem is, I don’t know how to do it. I’ve spent most of my life on problems like that. One man is one man. If you have charisma, people will listen to you, especially if you tell them what they want to hear. Some people can even get people to listen to something like the truth. I’m not one of those people. I can change me. Fine, then I die. Sure, if everybody did that, and did it the right way, the world would be a nice place. I don’t see it happening. The way I see it, it seems most people are trying to get someone else between the hornet’s nest and them. What I’d really like to hear is a way of getting rid of the hornet’s nest.
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By JimmiBaez
#13177810
'Radical' education and direct action sounds good. Time to let the masses know what's really going on, how much they're really being oppressed, and that we should band together.
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By Suska
#13177825
are you real clear on the destination?
several times in my life I've not only seen it I've lived it. There are places that are just like that, their government is nothing but what the good people want. Its damn near default setting for northern Europe as far as I can tell. I grew up on a westerner's compound just outside of Jeddah. Everything we had and did there before the Saudis decided they'd learned enough was politically idyllic - and all it was was sticking together and taking care of business. It isn't any great feat except in the face of bureaucratic juggernauts and a junked out populace.
By DubiousDan
#13179615
Suska:
several times in my life I've not only seen it I've lived it. There are places that are just like that, their government is nothing but what the good people want. Its damn near default setting for northern Europe as far as I can tell. I grew up on a westerner's compound just outside of Jeddah. Everything we had and did there before the Saudis decided they'd learned enough was politically idyllic - and all it was sticking together and taking care of business. It isn't any great feat except in the face of bureaucratic juggernauts and a junked out populace.

Me:
The Northern European countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and maybe Finland seem to be countries that have checked the industrial plague. I’m not sure how and I probably should have spent more time trying to figure that out. All of these countries were pretty much infected at one time. Somehow, in these countries greed is chained to reason. I don’t know whether World War II had something to do with or not. Sweden escaped the war, but probably due to an extraordinary military buildup. She was prepared to make Hitler pay dearly for violating her, and he seemed to get the message.
Yes, these are probably good places for a reasonable man to live. I’ve only been to France, Germany and Luxembourg. I was headed for Denmark, but never made it past Luxembourg. That was a long time ago, and things are very different now, I’m sure. I loved France and I liked Luxembourg. Somehow Germany didn’t appeal to me, and my Grandfather was born in Germany. I didn’t know it at that time, so if I had, it might have made a difference.
So you are ready to settle for a competent social order it would seem. Correct me if I’m wrong. A place where people work together for their mutual benefit. Where they avoid social excess. Where the citizens are reasonably competent, and manage their affairs well. Not a utopia but a good place to live. Am I getting there, or have I wandered off track?
Do you think that this way of life is expanding or contracting. Do you see this as the way of the future? Not only what we want, but what we will have?
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