[Suska]

You were speculating about why Northern Europe is the way it is. I agree Germany is not very appealing, my brother lived there for many years and I lived in Holland for almost a decade so I've seen it many times. Even with its plainness (apparently neither of us have been to Berlin...) its nice and in places gorgeous. A lot of people would say its their social policies which I do think partly come from having suffered in the war - even Sweden was touched by it. Dave would point to the homogeneity of race and culture, though its not entirely so, they are at least farther from Africa than France, but even France seems to be doing quite well socially, Switzerland too. In my opinion we're not talking really about something Europeans did so much as did not do which explains contrasts between America and Europe. America, for all its issues is no hell hole, cooperation and culture is natural even in the face of tyranny. It helped Europe enormously that they stayed mostly out of the cold war, for instance Holland depended on Russia not rolling west with tanks and only had America as a guarantee it wouldn't. The EU is - despite all the potential criticisms - a good thing in balance of power terms. Putting aside national character issues America has been at war all along and Presidents like the Bush's and Nixon have demonstrated that our Federal Government cannot hold its liquor while it systematically stripped State governments of their effectiveness. The entire idea of a government waging war against its own populace seems to never have occurred to Europeans apart from Hitler. Plus they are old old nations and have a long solid history of labor action and political activity. We are a young nation and we have our own efforts but they seem to be erratic and easily confused and corrupted.

Anarchy is the basis of society, not a system to achieve, we are by default not ruled and naturally cooperate locally. Therefore our problems stem from larger efforts (social engineering) and scale of government. Our federal government should not be the one doing all the things state governments ought to do - all the things we call Social Democracy in Europe ought to be handled by our State governments. The alternative is enormous bureaucracies which is too far away and impenetrable for people to keep an eye on it, Nixon is really the first 'war on drugs' president and this was among his deliberate efforts to hand America to cooperations. So I'd say at least some of our problems are a matter of corruption in the Executive branch - I'm not talking about the sort of corruption that involves bribes, probably thats part of it, the real problem is our Presidents don't work for us. They only see the problems we cause because DC itself is in terrible condition. To the federal govt we are all crackheads and terrorists, they only have to look out the window to know this.

This is not my magnum opus, I'm just saying... And probably there is something in our national character that gives us grief but you can't attack that or police it - you can however look for big obvious problems and as I've mentioned the cops versus the stoners (I'm sure Nixon thought of it in WW era terms of national industry, our numbers were low or something...) became cops versus all comers is so incredibly wrong and destructive we don't even have a name for the damage its doing and done. We will never be 1 America unless we can all agree what the Federal Governments job is. And partly corporations have been doing the deciding. Corporate law is as much a mess as criminal law here - so how did it become not our government's job to keep the game clean? We're always looking for the new bomb - the singular device that will solves the problem once and for all. Well when the solution is compromising and giving slack its never gonna come from the sort of top tier that earns profit on lawyers alone. So as I said, people need to assert their will through State government and empower their local offices and stop thinking something the Federal Govt can do is gonna fix anything forever.

The plainest way to put it, if good people can't catch a break there's nothing here to salvage. I could tell you local stories about victimization and robbery from neighbors and police. The DEA and the Jail Unions are not really working in our interests anymore and one easy thing we could and should do is reform drug laws... Ah the age of specialization... Everyone gets their cubicle and tiny little turf war, and it doesn't pay to be deeply experienced in living and getting along... But solve the major problems.

Libertarian Federal Government, Social Democrat State Government, absence of 'war on drugs' and 'world cop' = Profit, as proud as we should be for trying to do good things in the world, those people we're trying to save need to save themselves or we have gained nothing.

[Suska]

seems to never have occurred to Europeans apart from Hitler

I should qualify that I mean modern governments and exclude England which has followed Americas lead since the dismantling of the Empire.

[DubiousDan]

Suska

The entire idea of a government waging war against its own populace seems to never have occurred to Europeans apart from Hitler.

Me:
You do have some odd ideas about history. Actually, I don’t think Hitler intended to wage war on his own populace. He didn’t consider Jews as his anymore than Thomas Jefferson considered Blacks as his, except of course, as property. Yes, Hitler wasn’t a nice man, but most heads of state aren’t. If there is a God, Truman has a few things to explain.
If you haven’t, you might read Mien Kampf. It’s a good read. If you ignore the pathology, Hitler wasn’t all that dumb. When it came to Geopolitics, he was pretty smart. He just didn’t have the will power to do the smart thing, that’s all. If he had followed the policies that he laid out in Mein Kampf, the world map might be a little different today. I’m thankful that he screwed up, but if he hadn’t. Well, be thankful for screw ups.

Something puzzles me. You left the Netherlands to come to the US? I knew a fellow from there. He was visiting some relatives here that were friends of mine. This fellow seemed to feel that if he had to choose between emigrating to Hell or the United States, he would have to think about it.

From what I read about the Netherlands, it sounds pretty nice to me. Oh, well, different strokes for different folks.

Suska:

Anarchy is the basis of society, not a system to achieve, we are by default not ruled and naturally cooperate locally. Therefore our problems stem from larger efforts (social engineering) and scale of government. Our federal government should not be the one doing all the things state governments ought to do - all the things we call Social Democracy in Europe ought to be handled by our State governments. The alternative is enormous bureaucracies which is too far away and impenetrable for people to keep an eye on it, Nixon is really the first 'war on drugs' president and this was among his deliberate efforts to hand America to cooperations. So I'd say at least some of our problems are a matter of corruption in the Executive branch - I'm not talking about the sort of corruption that involves bribes, probably thats part of it, the real problem is our Presidents don't work for us. They only see the problems we cause because DC itself is in terrible condition. To the federal govt we are all crackheads and terrorists, they only have to look out the window to know this.

Me:
That I don’t get. As for state's rights. I live in California. Unless you live in California, you have no idea how incompetent a people can be. There used to be a saying, as California goes, so goes the nation. I have a horrible feeling that they’re right about that. Fortunately, I don’t have much time left. You want to give these nuts direct rule? About the only European country that would come close to the result would be Albania. I would take “W” over our present Governor. He’s not the problem. The problem is that the people here are stupid enough to elect him. They also have a direct ballot initiative thing just like they have in Switzerland. In Switzerland, it works, everything works in Switzerland. Nothing works in California except the sun. Oh fifty years ago, things did work here. We even had the Red Car Line just like Roger Rabbit said. Only what happened to it in real life was much more surreal. After that, it was all downhill.

[Suska]

Actually, I don’t think Hitler intended to wage war on his own populace.

I agree that I spoke loosely, I don't think its inaccurate though. When looking at Modern European-American history there are few parallels to the "War on Drugs" and as I say, few instances in which a government has led a systematic campaign against its own citizens. This doesn't include putting down revolts. But this is beside the point and not really the place for me to describe my ideas about history. Have a look at thisthough and read historyexplained.com

You left the Netherlands to come to the US?

I'm not Dutch, so I was coming home. That was 2001 just after the Trade Towers attack. I was jobless and felt isolated.

[DubiousDan]

Suska:

Have a look at thisthough and read historyexplained.com

Me:
I’m a slow reader. Still reading. I’ll get back to you.

[DubiousDan]

Suska:

I'm not Dutch, so I was coming home. That was 2001 just after the Trade Towers attack. I was jobless and felt isolated.

Me:
Yeah, jobless can be rough. I’ve been there. However, never in a foreign country. Still, if you spent eight years there, you must have learned a lot about the Netherlands.

No wonder you can’t tolerate our war on drugs. After being exposed to a rational approach, insanity is a little hard to take.

I read the book. Surprisingly, it is very close to my world view. The dynamics are different. But, by and large, the value judgments that he lays down on countries are much closer to mine than mine are to the American media. I don’t think he really understands why we support Israel but he clearly understands that it’s a mistake. As for our interventionism in the world, I think he paints with too broad a stroke. We really aren’t as well intentioned as he seems to think.

Oh, one thing, he’s about the first writer who agrees with me on the Civil War. That was a surprise.

He seems to think that we have reached the end stage of economic evolution, but that’s conventional wisdom. And he hasn’t a clue on what’s coming next. He doesn’t seem too knowledgeable about technology and its role, so that follows.

Still, he created a reasonable reality construct. Much closer to reality than the standard American media reality construct. However, I think his plan of action is a bit unrealistic.

So is this then your world view? The world wide march to democratic market capitalism. It’s cheerful, I’ll say that.

[Suska]

We really aren’t as well intentioned as he seems to think.

As I understand it his theory doesn't really speak to the matter of intentions but interests; if it is in our interest to feed people and go on breeding then some very firm necessities are easy to count on.

And he hasn’t a clue on what’s coming next.

He avoids speculation and relies on his strengths as an historian.

The world wide march to democratic market capitalism.

The world is marching toward a democratic market society, it does have an optimistic feel to it, however that's what a lot of the violence in the world is about. it won't be painless.

[DubiousDan]

Suska:

The world is marching toward a democratic market society, it does have an optimistic feel to it, however that's what a lot of the violence in the world is about. it won't be painless.

Me:
Yes, but right now, by and large, who is causing the violence?

[Suska]

right now, by and large, who is causing the violence?

America is struggling to learn the reality of societal development and for most of my lifetime has been operating with an incorrect analysis of the situation, due to believing its own propaganda about the third reich among other things. But if we're wrongly educated or just uneducated its time people started standing up for a reasonable discourse. So it isn't a matter of blame, but we need to figure out whats really going on. This discussion shouldn't happen here though, but in the thread I made to address David Maurer's theory.