[GandalfTheGrey]

being howled down by the jealous, cyber bullying rentacrowd.

so is this still on a nazism and Kristallnacht level? You are clearly avoiding this now as soon as you are taken to task. You can't expect to employ Godwin's law like this and expect to get away with it. Again, show us all how this "campaign" - which involves the signing of a petition and an alleged intimidation campaign against his sponsors - which no one knows anything about - is equivalent to nazism and Kristallnacht? I think you owe it to the 6 million victims of the most horrific genocide known to man - that you are trying to so hard to trivialise.

and colliric - what the fuck has that got to do with the persecution of Jones? Absolutely nothing. Neither you or Swag can show anything about this so-called cyber bullying of poor defenceless Jones and his sponsors (that is as bad as nazism according to swag), so you troll out any old random crap. By rights it should be deleted for being off topic, but I'll leave it so everyone can see how stupid it is.

[colliric]

nd colliric - what the fuck has that got to do with the persecution of Jones? Absolutely nothing. Neither you or Swag can show anything about this so-called cyber bullying of poor defenceless Jones and his sponsors (that is as bad as nazism according to swag), so you troll out any old random crap. By rights it should be deleted for being off topic, but I'll leave it so everyone can see how stupid it is.

I was using that as an example of how Facebook doesn't hold users accountable for content posted. I happened to accidentally come across that rather stock standard example(while searching for stuff on Jones). The article contained other examples too, including statements about Jones.

It was NOT random at all. It's systematic, and an obvious flaw of Facebook. I mean that's the sort of hatred directed at Alan Joyce(a pretty nice bloke who's just made some terrible business decisions). Imagine what someoneas divisive as Jones must have to put up with from these Facebook nuts.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Imagine what someoneas divisive as Jones must have to put up with from these Facebook nuts.

put up with? Are you serious? He thrives on it - this is the best publicity and marketing for him and his terminally declining ratings. But of course Jones gives out far far more than he gets - you should be asking the Lebanese muslims what they must have to put with as a result of Jones's blatant racism and incitement to violence on the eve of the Cronulla riots. How can you and swag possibly say a petition and a few facebook comments is "beyond 1984" and equivalent to Kristallnacht - and not have anything to say about the incitement and prejudice that Jones has promoted over the years - or even anything about the threats of violence against someone who launched a harmless facebook page protesting Jones's mysoginism? Freedom of speech is just a one way street for you two. Its just blatant hypocricy.

[colliric]

put up with? Are you serious? He thrives on it - this is the best publicity and marketing for him and his terminally declining ratings. But of course Jones gives out far far more than he gets - you should be asking the Lebanese muslims what they must have to put with as a result of Jones's blatant racism and incitement to violence on the eve of the Cronulla riots. How can you and swag possibly say a petition and a few facebook comments is "beyond 1984" and equivalent to Kristallnacht - and not have anything to say about the incitement and prejudice that Jones has promoted over the years - or even anything about the threats of violence against someone who launched a harmless facebook page protesting Jones's mysoginism? Freedom of speech is just a one way street for you two. Its just blatant hypocricy.

http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/political-n ... 279bh.html

See now they're even complaining about it too....Both sides are doing it to each other and Facebook has no moderators to police it. Peter Slipper is probably copping the Facebook nuts right now as well.

I'm not defending Jones original statement(only his proper apology), but he does have a point in criticizing Facebook and a large chunk of it's users... YouTube has the exact same problem too.

[AVT]

It will die down in a matter of days, the most active demographic on facebook is teens to mid-20's, it pops up on their wall that their friend like this group so they click it, most would not have even read or heard what Jones actually said but it is the human condition to feel outrage so they join in.

Thats why I view facebook campaigns and their like as fickle, the mainstream media misunderstands the nature of the beast and goes into overdrive (OMG there are 80K members!), remember Joseph Kony?

Jones said something stupid, he has paid a price, but all he has to do is stick it out because this campaign will run out off steam as soon as the next outrage starts circulating.

[Swagman]

being howled down by the jealous, cyber bullying rentacrowd.

so is this still on a nazism and Kristallnacht level? You are clearly avoiding this now as soon as you are taken to task. You can't expect to employ Godwin's law like this and expect to get away with it. Again, show us all how this "campaign" - which involves the signing of a petition and an alleged intimidation campaign against his sponsors - which no one knows anything about - is equivalent to nazism and Kristallnacht? I think you owe it to the 6 million victims of the most horrific genocide known to man - that you are trying to so hard to trivialise.
.

Just how am I avoiding it and how am I trivialising the Holocaust GTG?

Kristallnacht was a violent intimidation and hate campaign launched by a Collective against individuals based upon their race. In this case it's a violent intimidation and hate campaign launched by a Collective against an individual for his personal beliefs expressed at a private function and his sponsors for being associated with him. Whatever his view Jones is being "howled down" by an angry mob and his sponsors are being intimidated by a mob for being associated with him.

Kristallnacht was a prelude to what occured in the Holocaust. The Collective (Nazis) were unchecked in their deeds and the Holocaust resulted. Kristallnacht is a more extreme version of collective intimidation than the Facebook "Destroyers" but the tactics of collective intimidation are much of a muchness.

[unbalanced zealot]

It is. But my point is that the outcry we are seeing from the righteous victims is not a rallying to Jones's defence per se, Jones merely becomes a symbol for the usual, wider grievance against what they see as the assault on free speech and the rampage by the latte sipping PC brigade. Jones is merely a useful tool to articulate this grievance - and most of the righteous victims probably wouldn't listen to, or particularly like Jones himself.

Agreed. that's a fair point. It's actually a complex dynamic which would need some analysis of how contemporary Australians conceptualize class distinctions these-days to really fathom how this kind of thing could impact on political numbers.

Did you see my previous post?

Yep - but I was specifically referring to Jones' potential demise, rather than the health of the current ALP.

I saw Gillard's question time speech and also Tanner Q&A. Don't get me started on what's wrong with the ALP ATM and where they are headed.

At work at the moment so just a quick reply - will add tonight if poss.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Kristallnacht is a more extreme version of collective intimidation than the Facebook "Destroyers" but the tactics of collective intimidation are much of a muchness.

Kristallnacht was a savage act of violence against a persecuted minority that resulted in at least 91 deaths and the incarceration into concentration camps of around 30 thousand jews (where they all obviously died). Over 1000 synagogues were burned and over 7000 jewish businesses were destroyed by state sponsored vandalism. The "facebook destroyers" are using words and a petition to protest against outrageous comments (and no, not just the die of shame comment) made by a bully himself who deals out far more than he receives. But yeah, clearly the two tactics are "much of a muchness". Trully unbelievable.

Whatever his view Jones is being "howled down" by an angry mob and his sponsors are being intimidated by a mob for being associated with him.

Like I said, freedom of speech is a one way street for you. Jones can offend and incite all he wants, but if anyone dares respond verbally or in writing - with not even any threats of violence - its back to nazi Germany. Tell me swag, being the great defender of free speech that you are, what sort of free speech are these "facebook destroyers" actually entitled to - keeping in mind that they are completely non-violent and not even threatening violence?

[colliric]

Gandalf in the last link I posted the creator of that page admitted there was insulting material on the page going both directions and she was to lodge many complaints to Facebook to remove a few of the posts. She also said she had received death threats as well, reporting 3 of them to police. Someone also hacked her account. You've lost this arguement so give it up would you.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Ah yes colliric, that would be the exact same article I linked to on page 1 of this thread to prove MY point. One wonders what point you are trying to make with this.

so let me get this straight...

1. this "facebook destroyer" and "cyber terrorist" who is such a threat to our entire civilization has been attempting to get all offensive remarks removed and keep her campaign civil.
2. It has been revealed the same woman is the only person in this saga so far who has received any threats of violence.

... and yet somehow she is the problem and the troublemaker here. Go figure...

You've lost this arguement

tell me, do you agree with swagman's claim that the facebook page and petition against Jones and the violence and vandalism directed against the jews in Germany that resulted in 91 deaths and thousands of destroyed businesses and synagogues are "much of a muchness"?

In all seriousness though, I've been trying to get you two - either one - to reconcile this apparent position of yours that freedom of speech is only something that can be defended when rich powerful inciteful trolls express it. Why is it that as soon as someone starts to speak against them - in a non-violent, non-threatening way (no one has got even close to demonstrating that its otherwise), this sort of expression somehow becomes unacceptable? And while you're at it, please demonstrate to me why people who campaign against Jones are "cyber terrorists" and "facebook destroyers" - and a general threat to our civilization - but not the person who incites violence and denigrates entire groups of people - or even the defenders of this troll who actually *DO* threaten violence? If you can answer these questions, then you might have some authority to say I "lost the argument".

[colliric]

http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaki ... public_rss

Honestly just stop Gandalf, your making a sexist idiot out of yourself. Honestly who thinks it's "ethical" to call another woman a bitch to their wife?

[GandalfTheGrey]

http://m.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/darwin-station-suspends-jones-broadcasts/story-e6frea7l-1226487432127?from=public_rss

Honestly just stop Gandalf, your making a sexist idiot out of yourself. Honestly who thinks it's "ethical" to call another woman a bitch to their wife?

But its freedom of speech coliric - don't you get it? If its ok for Alan Jones to incite racial violence and denigrate entire groups of people, then whats wrong with this? In any case there's nothing about calling anyone a bitch in that link you gave. Please be more specific if you expect me to understand what you'r supposed to be arguing.

Also you haven't answered any of my questions. Please do keep up on what the actual discussion is about.

[colliric]

In the other thread YOU said it was ok to call someone a bitch so long as they didn't find out about it.. That's just disgraceful.

In fact your exact words are something along the lines of "It's ok to say anything you want in private". So if Jones had of said that in private(which he kind of believed was already the case) you would actually defend him.

Some very wise person once said "if you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" and they were right.

[GandalfTheGrey]

In the other thread YOU said it was ok to call someone a bitch so long as they didn't find out about it.. That's just disgraceful.

who in their right mind wouldn't think that was ok? No offense but you seem a very strange person colliric if you trully believe this - or most likely you're just being a troll. Also stop mixing up the threads and derailing them. Talk about Peter Slipper in the Peter Slipper thread and talk about Alan Jones in the Alan Jones thread.

In fact your exact words are something along the lines of "It's ok to say anything you want in private". So if Jones had of said that in private(which he kind of believed was already the case) you would actually defend him.

Confiding something privately to my wife or best friend for their ears only is a liiiiiiiiiitle bit different to giving a speech to a crowd full of young liberals wouldn't you say? Besides as I repeat over and over again, this one speech wasn't the issue (although since it was a liberal party function, you might expect better leadership by Abbott) - the issue is a constant stream of inciteful and offensive remarks that denigrate whole groups of people. The facebook person you brought up wasn't even protesting about this 'die of shame' comment - but a previous comment about women wrecking up the joint or something similar.

Some very wise person once said "if you've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" and they were right.

a variation of that saying is also useful: "if you've got nothing useful to say, don't say anything at all" For some reason I find that rather pertinent here...

[Swagman]

Kristallnacht is a more extreme version of collective intimidation than the Facebook "Destroyers" but the tactics of collective intimidation are much of a muchness.

Kristallnacht was a savage act of violence against a persecuted minority that resulted in at least 91 deaths and the incarceration into concentration camps of around 30 thousand jews (where they all obviously died). Over 1000 synagogues were burned and over 7000 jewish businesses were destroyed by state sponsored vandalism.

Like I mentioned. "A more extreme version of collective intimidation".

The "facebook destroyers" are using words and a petition to protest against outrageous comments (and no, not just the die of shame comment) made by a bully himself who deals out far more than he receives. But yeah, clearly the two tactics are "much of a muchness". Trully unbelievable.

So the actions of the "Facebook Destroyers" is not an example of collective intimidation according to you? What is it then? What is their goal?

Whatever his view Jones is being "howled down" by an angry mob and his sponsors are being intimidated by a mob for being associated with him.

Like I said, freedom of speech is a one way street for you. Jones can offend and incite all he wants, but if anyone dares respond verbally or in writing - with not even any threats of violence - its back to nazi Germany. Tell me swag, being the great defender of free speech that you are, what sort of free speech are these "facebook destroyers" actually entitled to - keeping in mind that they are completely non-violent and not even threatening violence?

They are entitled to Individual free speech. Once involved in a Collective they no longer actually have free speech do they.......just Collective speech........and then you have to abide by what the Collective says you can say.......if you don't, the Collective will intimidate you..............just like the Nazis....back in Nazi Germany........and trade unions.........

[GandalfTheGrey]

Like I mentioned. "A more extreme version of collective intimidation".

The two are not even in the same ball park. Violence vs non-violence; state-sponsored physical attacks vs a petition and a few posts on facebook; legitimising the mass persecution of an ethnic minority vs responding in kind to offensive comments made by an influential troll; 91 deaths, destruction of thousands of businesses and synagogues, the rounding up of 10s of thousands to await execution vs a slightly hurt ego of a troll who's been offending and inciting for years. Come on swag, I know you are smarter than this.

So the actions of the "Facebook Destroyers" is not an example of collective intimidation according to you? What is it then? What is their goal?

What are you even talking about - a petition? A facebook page protesting Jones's misogynistic comments? or the alleged hounding of businesses who sponsor Jones's show? The first - no - its a fucking petition for God's sake. The second - no - protesting against outrageous comments by a serial offender is not intimidation. The third - maybe, if we knew anything about it besides the allegations made by Jones himself. But we don't, so you are in no position to call it a vicious intimidation campaign. For all we know the businesses pulled out because they now see Jones as a liability because he can't help being such a moron.

They are entitled to Individual free speech. Once involved in a Collective they no longer actually have free speech do they.......just Collective speech........and then you have to abide by what the Collective says you can say.......if you don't, the Collective will intimidate you..............just like the Nazis....back in Nazi Germany........and trade unions.........

hmmm lets see, I guess that rules out street demonstrations, political parties, lobbyists, or basically any organisation that speaks out on any given issue. There goes our democracy. You starting to see how absurd this is?

[colliric]

There's a difference between those groups and the "collective" Swagman talks of..... The collective is more accurately called an angry often leaderless mob. Those other organizations usually have leadership that can be held accountable(the other distinction).

Most peaceful protests have a responsible peaceful leadership, that is keeping the group focused on the issue and NOT allowing(diffrent to condoning/promoting it) violent elements to take control.(through either direct violence or the issue of threats). That did NOT happen on this occassion.

The "collective"(lol typed that as Rob Oakshott said it on Lateline, weird coincidence!), was just plain called "the mob" in Roman Times. This is the modern equivalent of the "Friends! Romans! Countrymen!" mentality....

[Swagman]

The two are not even in the same ball park

Granted kristallnacht was many ball parks more deadly and much more 'extreme' but nevertheless the tactics are the same. Mob intimidtaion is mob intimidation whether you are a jew in Germany in 1938 or a supporter of Alan Jones in Australia in 2012.

Do you deny that business sponsors of Alan Jones' radio show weren't targeted at all by this Facebook mob?

I'm not suggesting that the pimply Facebook nerds are going to do what the the SA Paramilitary did, just that the tactics (of intimidation) are the same.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Granted kristallnacht was many ball parks more deadly and much more 'extreme' but nevertheless the tactics are the same. Mob intimidtaion is mob intimidation whether you are a jew in Germany in 1938 or a supporter of Alan Jones in Australia in 2012.

The tactics were not the same - one used non-violent, non-threatening and non-physical tactics, the other used physical tactics. You can't even show me if and where these facebook terrorists threatened violence (unlike what the Jones supporters did to one of the anti-Jones campaigners). In fact there's no reason to even call it intimidation. Its difficult to imagine how the two tactics could be any more far apart.

Do you deny that business sponsors of Alan Jones' radio show weren't targeted at all by this Facebook mob?

I honestly don't know - and neither do you. This is what I've been saying all along - we are all going entirely on Alan Jones's say-so that they were intimidated. Until we see something better, my explanation is just as plausible - that the sponsors left Jones of their own volition - because he's frankly becoming an embarassment for them. Then Jones used the pretext of maybe a couple of emails or complaints to invent an entire intimidation campaign by "cyber terrorists". If you have some plausible evidence that supports your view, then by all means lets see it.

I'm not suggesting that the pimply Facebook nerds are going to do what the the SA Paramilitary did, just that the tactics (of intimidation) are the same.

well you kind of were - you were using the slippery slope argument - which was hugely flawed to start with. There was no slippery slope at the time of Kristallnacht - the Germany was well and trull at the bottom of the slope by then - jews were already marked for persecution even before the event, and literally tens of thousands were being marched off to concentration camps - to their deaths. Kristallnacht was just a continuation of a path Germany had already gone down. Compared to Alan Jones - who last time I looked is still on air.

[colliric]

You do know because I posted a link to a news article on the FM radio station that claimed they received "vile" threats from one side, before deciding to suspend the show for 2 week, and subsequently receiving threats from the Jones supporters also.

They're not a Sponsor obviously, but it does show sister stations that were broadcasting the show received explicit threats both for having the show air on their station and also later from a diffrent group of people for having yielded to the wishes of the first group that threatened them. So it happened Gandalf, and you know it did.

So we're actually going on the say of the Facebook lady, Alan Jones himself and Territory FM as well as the news outlet that reported that story... Not just Alan Jones by himself in a vacuum!