Bll Mitchell's blog today. Deliberately creating mass unemployment NOW would be the work of vandals - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15223045
Deliberately creating mass unemployment now would be the work of vandals and New Keynesians
. . . Creating mass unemployment now will just undermine future investment in new capacity and create massive hardship for the workers made redundant. The only thing that is certain is that the rising unemployment will increase poverty rates, drive families into mortgage default, and undermine the prosperity of millions of families. It will NOT alleviate the shortages being caused by covid and lockdowns.

Last week, the New York Times published the latest Paul Krugman article on inflation (which is behind its paywall). It is syndicated elsewhere and you can access it here at The Berkshire Eagle (April 13, 2022) – Paul Krugman: Inflation is about to come down — but don’t get too excited. I wondered whether the author had offered his services cheaper to the NYTs and elsewhere given his concern for inflation, and, apparently, his assertion that wages are a critical factor in sustaining it. What this article highlights is mainstream New Keynesian macroeconomics – the dominant paradigm in our teaching, research and policy circles. What it also highlights is how different the mainstream is to Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), despite characters like Krugman and his fellow New Keynesians trying to tell the world that there is nothing particularly different about MMT and the way they do economics. It also provides another chance for me to add nuance to the Job Guarantee.
The US Bureau of Labor Statistics released the latest CPI data on April 12, 2022 – Consumer Price Index Summary.
The facts are:
1. “The Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) increased 1.2 percent in March on a seasonally adjusted basis after rising 0.8 percent in February”.
2. “Over the last 12 months, the all items index increased 8.5 percent before seasonal adjustment.”
3. Monthly growth in food was 1 per cent for March; 11 per cent for Energy (Petrol 18.3 per cent).
4. “The index for all items less food and energy rose 0.3 percent in March following a 0.5-percent increase the prior month.”

So there is an inflationary episode under way being driven largely by oil prices, which are fixed by an uncompetitive international cartel OPEC.
There is also evidence – and Krugman acknowledges this – that:
. . . “Inflation will probably fall significantly over the next few months.”
This morning oil prices were lower than they were a month ago.
But the pandemic continues and there are contrary factors at play on the supply-side at present. While it is hard to know exactly what is going on in China at any point in time, my intelligence (contacts with the suppliers and shipping companies) tells me that the latest lockdowns in Shanghai (financial centre) and Guangzhou (manufacturing and distribution hub) will impart a renewed supply shock to the rest of the world, which has built a dependency on Chinese manufactured and assembled goods. The – Port of Shanghai – is called a ‘large-port Megacity’ and is the worlds largest container port, edging Singapore out of that position in 2010. Guangzhou Harbour is ranked fifth largest port by volume in the world (Source). These ports shift huge volumes of cargo relative to say, the total import volumes that enter the US economy each year.
The lockdowns mean that workers do not go to their workplaces, trucks don’t shift cargo and the ports stop loading goods.
I read a Reuters report (April 13, 2022) – China is at risk of self-inflicted recession – which is full of propaganda but reports that:
At least 373 million people in cities contributing to 40% of China’s GDP have been affected … an index tracking freight traffic in China dropped by about 25% during the first week of April. China’s GDP in 2021 was around $US14,866 billion compared to the US GDP of $US22,893 billion (according to IMF data). 40 per cent of China’s productive output would be around $US5.950 billion. Japan, for example, the third largest economy, produced GDP in 2021 of $US5.1 billion. Australia produced $US1.3 billion. 5.1+1.3 =$6.4 billion. So the lockdowns are withdrawing output worth nearly as much as the entire output produced by Japan and Australia together. That is not an insignificant temporary supply cut.

We don’t know how much of that supply withdrawal is going to flow into China’s export markets but it will be a lot.

This graph shows the Shanghai Containerized Freight Index up to April 15, 2022.
It fell 35 index points in the last week.
Freight data from other Chinese ports also show large falls in volumes.

There is also the question of China’s own supply chain. With Just-in-Time methods now exposed by Covid for being risky, the closed factories will also disrupt other producing areas in China, with the further impact on export volumes down the chain.

Moreover, my shipping mate tells me that the ships that leave China’s export ports also bring essential productive inputs (components, etc) into China’s supply chain, which means if they cannot unload they cannot deliver and things cannot be produced. The whole shipping conduit has been disrupted by Covid – containers are stuck in places they are not required and so are not being loaded and trucked to ports.
And, then, there was war in the Ukraine, which has created further chaos in the supply-side of the economies around the world.

In this blog post – The current inflation still looks to be a transitory phenomenon (March 28, 2022) – I updated analysis of the shift in US consumer spending towards goods and away from services during the pandemic restrictions.
The goods supply could not keep up with the demand, given the supply constraints and sudden shift in spending, while the demand for services languished. The overall GDP was still below where it would have been had the pandemic not occurred, so it was hard to say there was ‘too much’ spending overall.
. . . There clearly wasn’t.
The problem was sectoral and the question I have been posing (and answering) is what proportion of those shifts in spending between goods and services is going to be permanent.
. . . My conclusion has been they are transitory, created by the extraordinary circumstances that the pandemic had created. In time, the patterns will revert back towards where they were and the sectoral bottlenecks will ease. And so will the price pressures. The shift back to spending on services will be one correction. The demand for goods will come back into line with available supply (we are seeing that happen across an array of goods – cars, household items, etc). And firms will find the goods inventories they have built up must be sold and they will discount.

My shipping mate tells me that contract prices for bulk ships have started to decline significantly.

The latest lockdowns in China will not help speed up things though. Nor will the Ukraine War.
Which brings me to Krugman and the New Keynesians. In his Op Ed he wrote:
. . . “The U.S. economy still looks overheated. Rising wages are a good thing, but right now they’re rising at an unsustainable pace. This excess wage growth probably won’t recede until the demand for workers falls back into line with the available supply, which probably — I hate to say this — means that we need to see unemployment tick up at least a bit.”
In the next sentence he added:
. . . “The good news is that there’s still no sign that expectations of high inflation are getting entrenched the way there were in, say, 1980. Consumers expect high inflation in the near future, but medium-term expectations haven’t moved much, suggesting that people expect inflation to come down a lot.”
He also claimed that inflation was not “spiralling out of control”.
So let’s put those three statements together.
The BLS – Employment Cost Index – December 2021 (latest) – shows that:
Compensation costs for private industry workers increased 4.4 percent over the year.
So real wages are falling as workers are unable to gain nominal wages growth to compensate for the inflation rate.
It means that, even though the unemployment rate is at 3.6 per cent in March 2022, the bargaining power of workers is still not strong enough to protect real wages.
We think of an excessively tight labour market as one where the unions and workers’ representatives are able to push nominal wage bargains ahead of inflation.
If we use the data from the BLS’s monthly establishment survey, we see that average weekly earnings in the private sector rose by 4.6 per cent over the 12 months from March 2021.
And the rate of nominal increase fell between March and February 2022 compared to February and January 2022.
In other words, wage pressures are not driving the inflation trajetory, which is also the reason why measures of inflationary expectations are, as Krugman admits, not revealling any medium-term acceleration.
People are smart enough to know that this is an extraordinary period of history with massive supply disruptions, a war and a cartel that is calling the shots for the time being.
All of which raises the question: Why would we want to worsen the situation by deliberately altering policy to force workers onto the jobless heap? The government can certainly tighten up fiscal policy and push the unemployment rate up – quickly if it wants to. But how will that alter the situation say in Chinese ports? How will it make the trucks move when Chinese workers are in lockdown and workers around the world are getting sick in large numbers still from Covid? How will it address the supply constraints (yet to be fully understood) that are arising from the Ukraine War?

The only thing that is certain is that the rising unemployment will increase poverty rates, drive families into mortgage default, and undermine the prosperity of millions of families.
Here we need to think about what ‘overheated’ means.
Yes, creating mass unemployment will certainly bring overall spending (demand) down and eventually will bring it into line with supply capacity.
In some contexts – specifically, if nominal demand is racing ahead of the growth of productive capacity – then government has to manage that nominal spending downwards if it wants to avoid inflationary pressures.
But, in that situation, we are assuming that productive capacity is at full use and investment has not been strong enough (to build capacity) relative to nominal spending growth.
That is not the situation we are in now.
The factories and all the productive equipment have at various times over the last few years been idle and working at below full capacity as a result of Covid.
The capacity is there and will bounce back quickly once we work out how to deal with Covid.
In other words, we are dealing with an abnormal supply constraint situation.
In that context, it would be highly damaging to treat it like the previous instance, where demand outstrips a supply-side capacity that is already at full utilisation levels.
Creating mass unemployment now will just undermine future investment in new capacity and create massive hardship for the workers made redundant.
The one caveat in all of this, which complicates matters, is that a move towards recession would probably force the OPEC nations to reduce oil prices quickly.
But that is a costly exercise and with medium term inflationary expectations benign, not one that would be justified.

Conclusion
The correct policy position at present is to tolerate the rising inflation and work to address the supply factors that are creating the pressures.
Compounding the inflation with a deliberate increase in mass unemployment would be the work of vandals and New Keynesians.
No MMT economist in the current situation would advocate that because we know that the inflationary pressures are not being driven by excess demand in a time of normal supply capacity utilisation.
#15223055
Some of you may remember that I have said that the lesson of the 70s and 80s was that as long as OPEC was causing inflation it was impossible to win the fight against it. All raising interest rates did was to make credit cost more, which just added another cost for some corps to pass on to their customers AND to raise unemployment.
Unemployment leads to foreclosure and/or poverty. And what good did it do. We had stagflation for about 17 years.
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#15223059
Steve_American wrote:Some of you may remember that I have said that the lesson of the 70s and 80s was that as long as OPEC was causing inflation it was impossible to win the fight against it. All raising interest rates did was to make credit cost more, which just added another cost for some corps to pass on to their customers AND to raise unemployment.
Unemployment leads to foreclosure and/or poverty. And what good did it do. We had stagflation for about 17 years.
.


Unemployment is a corrective process also if you count only the process and not the humane side to it. The reality is that unemployment is the systems way of re-adjusting low value add or zero value add jobs with high value add or more value add jobs.

So forever having 0 unemployment is bad also and reality is that it needs to exist to some degree.

The objective is the well-being of the people though which unemployment worsens while long term it actually improves it if unemployment is not huge. It is complicated.
#15223061
JohnRawls wrote:Unemployment is a corrective process also if you count only the process and not the humane side to it. The reality is that unemployment is the systems way of re-adjusting low value add or zero value add jobs with high value add or more value add jobs.

So forever having 0 unemployment is bad also and reality is that it needs to exist to some degree.

The objective is the well-being of the people though which unemployment worsens while long term it actually improves it if unemployment is not huge. It is complicated.


Nobody said that there was 0 unemployment at any time after WWII in the US. So, your point is mute.

I was unclear, however. The super high unemployment =UE of the late 70s and 80s did lead to poverty and foreclosures, right?

MMT claims to have a way to have almost 0 UE. It does it with a national Gov. financed Job Guarantee Program that is mostly locally run. It offers a job to everyone who wants one at what they call a "socially inclusive wage" that currently would start at about $15/hr. but would increase over time to as much as $25/hr. If you think that local restaurants would all go out of business, MMT asserts that the local economy would be getting more cash from the natl' Gov. so the restaurants would have more customers who could pay more for the food. After a while the price increases would stop according to MMT because the wage would stop increasing at about $25/hr.

I find it very unchristian that business owners think that they are special, that when profits are too low for a while that the system *owes* them extra high profits for a while to "make up for their lost profits". BUT, they think that their workers are very not-special, in that the workers are never owed by the system additional income to "make up for their previous lower income".

.
#15223064
Steve_American wrote:Nobody said that there was 0 unemployment at any time after WWII in the US. So, your point is mute.

I was unclear, however. The super high unemployment =UE of the late 70s and 80s did lead to poverty and foreclosures, right?

MMT claims to have a way to have almost 0 UE. It does it with a national Gov. financed Job Guarantee Program that is mostly locally run. It offers a job to everyone who wants one at what they call a "socially inclusive wage" that currently would start at about $15/hr. but would increase over time to as much as $25/hr. If you think that local restaurants would all go out of business, MMT asserts that the local economy would be getting more cash from the natl' Gov. so the restaurants would have more customers who could pay more for the food. After a while the price increases would stop according to MMT because the wage would stop increasing at about $25/hr.

I find it very unchristian that business owners think that they are special, that when profits are too low for a while that the system *owes* them extra high profits for a while to "make up for their lost profits". BUT, they think that their workers are very not-special, in that the workers are never owed by the system additional income to "make up for their previous lower income".

.


Perhaps I frazed it wrong. I didn't mean 0 unemployment. Anything below 5% is very low unemployment when you are already interring a structural unemployment problem meaning that people have to move from sector to sector which kinda puts businesses in a situation where they have to close if their sector is lower paid/lower margin compared to some other sector. (IT vs Your local pub)

What I mean is that having structural unemployment all the time kills sectors with lower margins even if they have utility for society. We can live without software but can we live without food? Other alternative is increasing prices because of this or re-optimisation of the said businesses is how I look at it. (Yes this is inflation)

So variations of unemployment help you save those sectors to some degree and in essence this is what the person suggests in a very roundabout way of sorts. This asks the question if those sectors should exist in the first place BUT we can't ignore the fact that some sectors like this are vital for us as human beings even if they are low margin and replacing them with outsourcing/globalisation is not the smartest idea. We already have problems with this.

In a sense that it is more than just a economic question but also a cultural/political/societal one.
#15223070
JohnRawls wrote:Perhaps I frazed it wrong. I didn't mean 0 unemployment. Anything below 5% is very low unemployment when you are already interring a structural unemployment problem meaning that people have to move from sector to sector which kinda puts businesses in a situation where they have to close if their sector is lower paid/lower margin compared to some other sector. (IT vs Your local pub)

What I mean is that having structural unemployment all the time kills sectors with lower margins even if they have utility for society. We can live without software but can we live without food? Other alternative is increasing prices because of this or re-optimisation of the said businesses is how I look at it. (Yes this is inflation.)

So variations of unemployment help you save those sectors to some degree and in essence this is what the person suggests in a very roundabout way of sorts. This asks the question if those sectors should exist in the first place BUT we can't ignore the fact that some sectors like this are vital for us as human beings even if they are low margin and replacing them with outsourcing/globalisation is not the smartest idea. We already have problems with this.

In a sense that it is more than just a economic question but also a cultural/political/societal one.


John, who is "the person"?

According to Prof. Bill Mitchell, MMTers define 'inflation' as a general on going increase in prices.
. . . So, if it in just the restaurant industry it isn't inflation and it isn't if it stops fairly soon.
. . . So, like I said just above, the people earning $25/hr can eat out even if the prices are higher.
. . . Also, if the Gov. JGP is paying $25/hr, then this is the new min. wage. If corps want to hire people they will have to pay over $25/hr. The entire economy will have to adjust to this new reality.
. . . Of course, MMTers do not make this a requirement to claim the gov. "is using MMT" like it does the JGP, but MMTers also want to tax the rich like they were back in the "Golden Age of American Economics", which was from about 1943 until about 1973. Taxing rich people is fairly easy, just raise the rates and get rid of the loopholes.
. . . Taxing international corps is much harder. I have suggested a graduated tax rate on corps and also make them pay whichever is more of 2 different ways of calculating their taxes owed.
. . 1] Tax their profits at a higher rate because profits will allow more deductions.
. . 2] Tax at a lower rate their revenue earned/collected in the US minus wages and salaries paid to US residents. Allow no other deductions. [Maybe investments made in the US.]
. . . . Obviously, I'm not expert enough to finish the details. This is the concept.

Yes, politically, it is impossible NOW. But then, so is doing anything to save the human race from extinction in 50 to 100 years. So, what is politically possible had better change very fast, or YOU *all* die. I'll be dead in less than 10 years anyway.

.
#15223082
Steve_American wrote:John, who is "the person"?

According to Prof. Bill Mitchell, MMTers define 'inflation' as a general on going increase in prices.
. . . So, if it in just the restaurant industry it isn't inflation and it isn't if it stops fairly soon.
. . . So, like I said just above, the people earning $25/hr can eat out even if the prices are higher.
. . . Also, if the Gov. JGP is paying $25/hr, then this is the new min. wage. If corps want to hire people they will have to pay over $25/hr. The entire economy will have to adjust to this new reality.
. . . Of course, MMTers do not make this a requirement to claim the gov. "is using MMT" like it does the JGP, but MMTers also want to tax the rich like they were back in the "Golden Age of American Economics", which was from about 1943 until about 1973. Taxing rich people is fairly easy, just raise the rates and get rid of the loopholes.
. . . Taxing international corps is much harder. I have suggested a graduated tax rate on corps and also make them pay whichever is more of 2 different ways of calculating their taxes owed.
. . 1] Tax their profits at a higher rate because profits will allow more deductions.
. . 2] Tax at a lower rate their revenue earned/collected in the US minus wages and salaries paid to US residents. Allow no other deductions. [Maybe investments made in the US.]
. . . . Obviously, I'm not expert enough to finish the details. This is the concept.

Yes, politically, it is impossible NOW. But then, so is doing anything to save the human race from extinction in 50 to 100 years. So, what is politically possible had better change very fast, or YOU *all* die. I'll be dead in less than 10 years anyway.

.


The person who suggest deliberately creating mass unemployment in your first post.
#15223090
Rancid wrote:Who wants to create mass unemployment?


Rising inflation, rising unemployment and lower economic growth. We are doing a full 70s revival! At least the hairstyles and music will be epic. :D

Stagflation (wiki)
#15223129
Rancid wrote:Who wants to create mass unemployment?


Who wants to raise unemployment?

Most mainstream economists. The Board at the Fed.

They want to fight inflation by raising interest rates to cool the economy, but the inflation is being caused by shortages and the economy has lost 900K dead and 200K with Long covid, and many out sick with covid on any given day. This is a problem. This a unique situation. Raising interest rates will not change these problems, but will be another cost to be folded into higher prices by corps. So, the Fed will push interest rates way up and so there will be high unemployment.
.
#15223146
Saeko wrote:Is it time to horde shoelaces?

I dunno. Is the Golden Horde running short of shoelaces? I thought they always rode horses. :?:

It may be time to hoard shoelaces however….

:)
#15223183
Rancid wrote:Who wants to create mass unemployment?


No one. Unemployment will be a side effect of their actions to get inflation under control like Paul Volcker did in the early 1980's.

Steve_American is the epitome of people who monkey hammer the economy for free shit and then whine when the bills come due.

Oh well. Proving once again: two plus two really does equal four.
#15223187
Steve_American wrote:Nobody said that there was 0 unemployment at any time after WWII in the US. So, your point is mute.

I was unclear, however. The super high unemployment =UE of the late 70s and 80s did lead to poverty and foreclosures, right?

MMT claims to have a way to have almost 0 UE. It does it with a national Gov. financed Job Guarantee Program that is mostly locally run. It offers a job to everyone who wants one at what they call a "socially inclusive wage" that currently would start at about $15/hr. but would increase over time to as much as $25/hr. If you think that local restaurants would all go out of business, MMT asserts that the local economy would be getting more cash from the natl' Gov. so the restaurants would have more customers who could pay more for the food. After a while the price increases would stop according to MMT because the wage would stop increasing at about $25/hr.

I find it very unchristian that business owners think that they are special, that when profits are too low for a while that the system *owes* them extra high profits for a while to "make up for their lost profits". BUT, they think that their workers are very not-special, in that the workers are never owed by the system additional income to "make up for their previous lower income".

.


A point is not mute. A point is moot.

A "socially inclusive wage" is unsustainable. If a product or service is not worth that $15, then it's not worth that $15. Setting artificial values to wages by an outside force simply causes higher unemployment, higher prices for consumers, accelerates inflation and demand destruction. It also leads to depressed wages because some will reduce wages to meet standards and have less consideration for merit. It also causes inflation because there's greater expenditure without greater productivity. It also forces the introduction of automation more quickly and therefore causes more long term unemployment. You also erode the buying power of those on fixed incomes. This ain't rocket surgery.

Business owners ARE special. They get it done everyday.

You aren't special. You armchair opinionate all day (and might I add have some of the dumbest opinions).
#15223198
BlutoSays wrote:A point is not mute. A point is moot.

A "socially inclusive wage" is unsustainable. If a product or service is not worth that $15, then it's not worth that $15. Setting artificial values to wages by an outside force simply causes higher unemployment, higher prices for consumers, accelerates inflation and demand destruction. It also leads to depressed wages because some will reduce wages to meet standards and have less consideration for merit. It also causes inflation because there's greater expenditure without greater productivity. It also forces the introduction of automation more quickly and therefore causes more long term unemployment. You also erode the buying power of those on fixed incomes. This ain't rocket surgery.

Business owners ARE special. They get it done everyday.

You aren't special. You armchair opinionate all day (and might I add have some of the dumbest opinions).



All prices are artificial.
#15223256
No. If you don't like the price, you're free to move on. If it isn't selling, it'll either be eliminated or the price will drop.

Subsidies, "windfall profits taxes", price controls, arbitrary mandates, and random edicts from gubmint all serve to pay off grifters and politicians (redundant), soothe liberal jealousy and cause unnatural dislocations in markets, which makes them very inefficient.
#15223273
BlutoSays wrote:No. If you don't like the price, you're free to move on. If it isn't selling, it'll either be eliminated or the price will drop.

Subsidies, "windfall profits taxes", price controls, arbitrary mandates, and random edicts from gubmint all serve to pay off grifters and politicians (redundant), soothe liberal jealousy and cause unnatural dislocations in markets, which makes them very inefficient.


Lurkers, Bluto is here using a strange definition of efficiency, but one that mainstream economics uses. I assume that many of you accept this definition based on the authority of professional economists.

However, think for a minute about how 'efficient' a nation is making of its work force if 10% of them are unemployed. MMT wants to maintain real full employment, where the only people unemployed are those between jobs who don't want a JGP job because they are looking for a better job in the private sector of the economy.

So, MMT points out the massive inefficiency of the current system that now is intending to increase unemployment by increasing interest rates to lower inflation, EVEN THOUGH raising interest rates will have zero effects on the problems causing the inflation. These problems are things like, supply chain bottlenecks, OPEC, the war in Ukraine, and the over concentration in many industries which gives the few massive corps** monopoly power to set prices higher so they make more profit.
. . . The only way raising interest rates will hold down inflation is after the policy has sucked enough buying power out of the economy that nobody can pay the inflated prices. So, only a massive recession or depression which has caused massive unemployment will reduce buying power enough to slow down inflation.
. . . This massive recession will reduce buying power by creating massive inefficient use of the nation's labor. Once 1 million workers don't work for a day those 8M hours of labor can never be recovered. It is like the economic system had picked up a factory and dropped it into the ocean where it can't be recovered. Dropping factories into the ocean would be attacked by mainstream economists as massively inefficient. So, MMT attacks unemployment as massively inefficient.

** . These massive corps are the result of Reagan stopping the enforcement of the anti-trust laws and later presidents not reversing this policy decision. IMO, this policy is not legal in that the constitution requires the president to "faithfully enforce the laws of the nation". It doesn't give the president the power to pick and choose which laws to enforce.
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#15223506
If you tell a business it needs to hire five people to push a broom, where one will actually do the trick (like unions do), that's inefficient. That's a burden on the business imposed by outside forces.

All your diatribes ignore the reality of the global economy we are in today and competition from it. Hell, I don't think democrats even know HOW to think that way.


"It is like the economic system had picked up a factory and dropped it into the ocean where it can't be recovered."

Kind of like democrats do everyday through their feel good regulations, overtaxation and random proclamations from ivory towers, because they've never had to meet a business payroll themselves and never link their actions to job loss. They just think the rich will absorb every hit. :roll: It's downright nutty. Washington DC has far too many inept lawyers and far too few legislators that have any other skill sets.

"IMO, this policy is not legal in that the constitution requires the president to "faithfully enforce the laws of the nation. It doesn't give the president the power to pick and choose which laws to enforce."

Yeah? Really? Maybe Joe Biden should apply that concept at the U.S./Mexico border.
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