[ckaihatsu]

Next month everybody's gotta start *composting* -- !


x D

[Rancid]

there's *no way* the economy will be able to survive this raised-interest-rate clampdown.

Disagree.

Capitalism is a drunkard that stumbles like fucking hell, but always manages to stay up on both feet. You know what I'm talking about, you've seen that guy at the pub.

[ckaihatsu]

Disagree.

Capitalism is a drunkard that stumbles like fucking hell, but always manages to stay up on both feet. You know what I'm talking about, you've seen that guy at the pub.

Fun.

Please tell me what happened to the U.S. economy in 2008-2009, and in March 2020, respectively. Thanks much.

[ckaihatsu]

Shit, I can't take the suspense....

In a Peabody Award winning program, NPR correspondents argued that a "Giant Pool of Money" (represented by $70 trillion in worldwide fixed income investments) sought higher yields than those offered by U.S. Treasury bonds early in the decade. This pool of money had roughly doubled in size from 2000 to 2007, yet the supply of relatively safe, income generating investments had not grown as fast. Investment banks on Wall Street answered this demand with products such as the mortgage-backed security and the collateralized debt obligation that were assigned safe ratings by the credit rating agencies.[3]

In effect, Wall Street connected this pool of money to the mortgage market in the US, with enormous fees accruing to those throughout the mortgage supply chain, from the mortgage broker selling the loans to small banks that funded the brokers and the large investment banks behind them. By approximately 2003, the supply of mortgages originated at traditional lending standards had been exhausted, and continued strong demand began to drive down lending standards.[3]

Economist Paul Krugman, laureate of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, described the run on the shadow banking system as the "core of what happened" to cause the crisis. He referred to this lack of controls as "malign neglect" and argued that regulation should have been imposed on all banking-like activity.[316] Without the ability to obtain investor funds in exchange for most types of mortgage-backed securities or asset-backed commercial paper, investment banks and other entities in the shadow banking system could not provide funds to mortgage firms and other corporations.[355][316]

This meant that nearly one-third of the U.S. lending mechanism was frozen and continued to be frozen into June 2009.[356] According to the Brookings Institution, at that time the traditional banking system did not have the capital to close this gap: "It would take a number of years of strong profits to generate sufficient capital to support that additional lending volume." The authors also indicate that some forms of securitization were "likely to vanish forever, having been an artifact of excessively loose credit conditions". While traditional banks raised their lending standards, it was the collapse of the shadow banking system that was the primary cause of the reduction in funds available for borrowing.[41]

February 13, 2009: Congress approved the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, a $787 billion economic stimulus package. President Barack Obama signed it the same day.[164][165]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial ... ing_bubble

---

Black Thursday (12 March) [2020]

[T]he Federal Reserve announced $1.5 trillion in open market purchases.[242]

United States

Soon after trading began, a Level-1 trading curb was triggered on major US stock markets due to increased selling, leading to a 15-minute halt on trading.[234] Level-1 circuit breaker is triggered with a fall of 7% on the S&P 500. The trading halt occurred after the markets reached a drop of 7.2 percent within 15 minutes. The crash temporarily recovered after the Federal Reserve Bank of New York offered at least $1.5 trillion worth of short-term loans to banks for 12–13 March, but the market quickly resumed its decline soon after.[270] The Dow fell 2,353 points,[271] losing all of its gains from its lowest point in 2018.[272] The drop surpassed Black Monday, which occurred just a few days before, to be the greatest single-day point drop ever.[273] Together with the drops of 1,191 and 1,465 points on 27 February and 11 March, the four largest Dow daily losses up to Black Thursday were all linked to the COVID-19 pandemic.[274][275][276][277] President Trump reacted to the crash by defending his travel ban and predicting that the stock market would eventually recover with central bank intervention.[278]

Overall size of the falls

"In the 33 days between 19 February and 23 March, the FTSE All-Share Index fell by 33 per cent [...] The MSCI World Index declined by 34 per cent."[478]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_stoc ... %936_March

Now you gotta say the words 'Hurricane capitalism', Rancid.

[ckaihatsu]

Sri Lanka economic crunch - Citizens try to flee country amid crisis _ World News _ WION

[Rancid]

Fun.

Please tell me what happened to the U.S. economy in 2008-2009, and in March 2020, respectively. Thanks much.

We are still here, and we are still alive, no? Did you starve or go homeless in 2008?

[wat0n]

Besides, all economies suffered due to the pandemic. Even China just barely managed to grow... And not much.

[ckaihatsu]

We are still here, and we are still alive, no? Did you starve or go homeless in 2008?

Low standards, huh -- ? Got enough pillows in your fort?

Besides, all economies suffered due to the pandemic. Even China just barely managed to grow... And not much.

*Or*, profiteering was given direct government subsidies:

Two years into the COVID-19 pandemic, the correspondence between mass infection and stock prices is well established. The markets fall when they suspect measures will be taken to stop the spread of COVID-19, and they rise when the disease is allowed to spread unchecked.

More than $1.4 trillion of the $2.3 trillion CARES Act consisted of bailouts to business, with the overwhelming majority going to large and well-connected enterprises. The CARES Act also facilitated a massive monetary intervention by the Federal Reserve that totaled over $4 trillion. As a result, the Fed balance sheet rose from $4.1 trillion in February 2020 to more than $8.7 trillion today, $1.4 trillion of which has been handed out since the inauguration of Biden.

The results were predictable: Mass death on the one hand, and massive enrichment of the oligarchy on the other. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, and billionaires in the US are now $2.1 trillion wealthier than they were before the pandemic began.

The pandemic response of both Trump and Biden was built upon the reaction of the Obama and Bush administrations to the 2008 financial crisis, when a similar bailout of Wall Street—though on a somewhat smaller scale—was organized. While more than 10 million households lost their homes, America’s billionaires emerged from the crisis wealthier than ever before.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/0 ... s-j05.html

[wat0n]

And it would've been even worse had nothing been done.

I never fancied you as a radical libertarian, @ckaihatsu

[Rancid]

Low standards, huh -- ? Got enough pillows in your fort?

A collapse would mean we're all in the streets, half naked trying to kill each other for dinner.

[ckaihatsu]

A collapse would mean we're all in the streets, half naked trying to kill each other for dinner.

No -- it means that the capitalist system of economics that we're all tied-into would no longer provide any kind of interchangeability, as through currency and debt, for the real-economy to do its thing, that we all rely on.

And it would've been even worse had nothing been done.

I never fancied you as a radical libertarian, @ckaihatsu

Well, to clarify, I *am* more of an accelerationist, or 'apocalypticist', and at the time I found it curious, and even shocking, that libertarians were calling for the system to be left to rise or fall by its own merits. One of those 'crucible' moments in history, I'd say.

Here's my cred:


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show

https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show

[wat0n]

Have you ever considered these counter-cyclical interventions are part of the system?

[ckaihatsu]

Have you ever considered these counter-cyclical interventions are part of the system?

Really? Just 'waves-in-the-pond' -- ?

Where do you draw the line? What about *Sri Lanka's* situation? Lebanon? Yemen? Got cash for all *that*?

[wat0n]

Really? Just 'waves-in-the-pond' -- ?

Where do you draw the line? What about *Sri Lanka's* situation? Lebanon? Yemen? Got cash for all *that*?

Incompetent governments (Sri Lanka) or failed states outright (Yemen, Lebanon to a lesser extent).

The Sri Lankan government was so incompetent that it banned artificial fertilizers during the pandemic for no real reason, leading to agricultural production falling by 50%. Even most communist governments wouldn't be so stupidly incompetent.

I wouldn't say failed states can be said to have a proper economic system.

[ckaihatsu]

Incompetent governments (Sri Lanka) or failed states outright (Yemen, Lebanon to a lesser extent).

The Sri Lankan government was so incompetent that it banned artificial fertilizers during the pandemic for no real reason, leading to agricultural production falling by 50%. Even most communist governments wouldn't be so stupidly incompetent.

I wouldn't say failed states can be said to have a proper economic system.

Shouldn't the *U.S.* *also* be considered to be a 'failed state', since it's currently going begging to Saudi Arabia and Israel -- ?

[wat0n]

No, and I don't see what it's begging for. I'd say it's normally the other way around.

Any other questions?

[ckaihatsu]

No, and I don't see what it's begging for. I'd say it's normally the other way around.

On August 9, 2020, Saudi Arabia announced that it would cut down on oil supply to the U.S. for the third time in one year, in an attempt to suppress stockpiles in the global oil market to rebalance the demand and supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Ara ... gy_and_oil

---

Any other questions?

(Commencing laughter.)


= D


Where do you stand on the IMF?

[Rancid]

No -- it means that the capitalist system of economics that we're all tied-into would no longer provide any kind of interchangeability, as through currency and debt, for the real-economy to do its thing, that we all rely on.

All good.

[wat0n]

The US is currently the largest oil producer in the world, not Saudi Arabia. And it is the latter which depends on the former for its national security.

The IMF could do better and be more stringent when offering bailouts to serial defaulters like Argentina.

[ckaihatsu]

All good.

So what *replaces* it, then, according to you?

The US is currently the largest oil producer in the world, not Saudi Arabia. And it is the latter which depends on the former for its national security.

The IMF could do better and be more stringent when offering bailouts to serial defaulters like Argentina.

Geopolitics, then -- was the U.S. correct in its backing of the coup in Venezuela in 2019?

2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis

Main article: Venezuelan presidential crisis

On 23 January 2019, Maduro announced that Venezuela was breaking ties with the United States following President Trump's announcement of recognizing Juan Guaidó, the leader of Venezuela's National Assembly, as the interim President of Venezuela.[6] Maduro said all US diplomats must leave within 72 hours, but Guaidó said that they should stay.[101] Maduro later confirmed the closure of the Venezuelan Embassy and all consulates in the United States.[102] In response Maduro ordered the expulsion of US diplomats, giving them 72 hours to leave Venezuela. The US said it would not close its embassy, stating their diplomatic relationship was with Guaidó's government, and holding Maduro responsible for the safety of its staff.[103][104][105] On 26 January 2019, only hours before the deadline, the Maduro government backtracked on its expulsion order, giving US diplomats another 30 days.[106]

In the spring of 2020 the United States stepped up pressure on Maduro. On 26 March the United States accused President Nicolás Maduro of narcoterrorism and offered a $15 million reward for information leading to his arrest.[114] In response, Maduro called US President Donald Trump a "racist cowboy".[115] A few days later, Venezuelan Attorney General Tarek William Saab summoned opposition leader Juan Guaidó for questioning for an alleged "attempted coup d'etat" and "attempted assassination".[116] On 31 March, United States Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that sanctions did not apply to humanitarian aid during the health emergency and that the United States would lift its sanctions if Maduro agreed to organize elections that did not include Maduro in a period of six to twelve months and reiterated U.S. support for Guaidó.[117] Then on 1 April President Trump announced that he was sending anti-drug Navy ships and AWACS planes to the region near Venezuela in one of the largest military build-ups in the region since the 1989 invasion of Panama to remove General Manuel Noriega from power.[118][failed verification]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ial_crisis