Clanko / Gandolf
I ask you to provide me with sufficient evidence and analysis to support this otherwise baseless statement that Israel has offered a viable state. Perhaps you find the language confusing and don't realise that the states 'viability' is entirely linked to its territorial congruity and complete self-determination.
This is great. If you want to discuss this further, I think we first need to establish the goal posts.
So please answer this question.
1) What is required for a 'viable' state?
Territorial congruity is clearly one factor. But then what amounts to territorial congruity because Gaza can never be connected to the West Bank by land, so if you make this too strict then it becomes impossible to offer 'territorial congriuity' to the Palestinians.
Please also answer my earlier question.
2) What was it about Camp David that would have resulted in the Palestinian state not being viable?
Can we also agree on this source being a fair summary of the negotiations?
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htmWhat are you talking about? All the man said was that he wanted more time to finalise the details. Would you rather he rejected it out of hand?
Straw man. What I actually was talking about was Abbas' public statements that Olmert's offer should now be the new starting point of all future negotiations even though this was infact close to an end point.
Indeed, Haaretz attributed the Palestinian rejection to the offer as "not provide[ing] for a contiguous Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital."
I don't care what Haaretz says, that's here say. What matters is what the Israelis offered the Palestinians, not what you say Haaratz say the Palestinians said the Palestinians rejected Camp David.
Also, another "detail" that you probably don't hear much about - Olmert himself approved settlement expansion in Efrat and Ariel during this time, which would almost certainly be part of the territory that Israel annexed.
So what? That doesn't change Omert's offer nor is it even wrong given that Ariel and Efrat are well within the parts of the West Bank that are virtually certain to be part of Israel not the Palestinian state. The Palestinians also built in Ramallah, which I believe is a moral equivilence.
The more I read about the offer, the more it becomes apparent that it was a work in progress
Whether or not it was a full complete offer, the Palestinians still rejected it, at least according tot eh sources I read. They didn't seek clarification, they didn't say "we can work with this but we need to flesh it out" they rejected it.
Olmert has agreed with Abbas that the negotiations over Jerusalem will be postponed. In doing so, he gave in to the Shas Party's threats that it would leave the coalition if Jerusalem were put on the negotiating table
Don't be such a numnut. This was a public official statement made to stop Shas, who had publically and officially threatened to leave the coallition, from leaving the coalition. But unofficially, which is what actually mattered, Jerusalem was discussed and Shas turned a blind eye. It was domestic politics and it is the standard way a lot of business is done in that region.
And it would have worked too if it wasn't for Abbas' absolutely rediculously stupid public statement claiming Israel had made many comprimises on Jerusalem. It's almost as if he deliberately torpedoed the process, since it was clear and obvious to everybody how important it was to be quiet about the Jeruaslem discussions. Sure enoughy, Shas' grass routes claimed Olmert was mocking Shas and Shas now needed to act or face public humiliation. So Olmert was forced to publically agree to postpone negotiations over Jerusalem, at least for a while until stability returned to the coalition. But even then it is likely Jerusalem was nevertheless discussed to some extent, though if it was not, it is entirely the Palestinians fault for trying to cause the collapse of an Israeli government that was talking to them.
I don't have time to find the exact article showing this but this was how I remember in real time it happened.