[Godstud]

Funny how an article about a peaceful protest that should be a celebration of democracy in action, turns into a anti-muslim bash fest.

A peaceful protest that sparked crimes as far away as Turkey, against a newspaper? How is that peaceful? Like Cartertonian said, "Someone blashpemes Mohammed - and the majority of the Muslim world takes offence.". This is true and the reason why violence, etc. gets sparked from a 'peaceful protest'. You now just need the Ayatollah to issue a fatwa against the artist, to make the protest complete.

As for the other things not being relative, they most certainly are. They have been the previous 'protests' against things that the Muslim world doesn't like. They've resulted in riots, deaths, death threats, etc. all because Muslims didn't like something written or a cartoon. The protest itself might have been peaceful, but it's the spark for Muslim violence.

Aftenposten first published copies of the cartoons in 2005 but did not join newspapers in many other countries when they reprinted in 2006 some or all of them, citing freedom of expression.
Angry crowds demonstrated across the Muslim world, leaving dozens of people dead in riots and causing damage to Danish embassies and the country's export trade due to boycotts.

That's from the previous cartoon that offended Muslims. It's very relevant.


It was Aamir Sheikh who took the initiative to arrange the meeting. The goal was to find solution to the Muslim problem that arouse after the newspaper printed the Muhammed as a pig cartoon as an illustration for a story. On Friday, 1000 Muslim taxi drivers parked their cars and blocked the traffic in Oslo protesting the printing of the cartoons. They continued their strike on Monday.

Now the imam suggest that he fears the Muslim reaction could, be stronger than when the Muhammed cartoon were printed the first time in 2006 and hundreds of building, embassies and people, were burned and killed over a freeking cartoon.

Yes, this time the might be bigger problems with rioting Muslims. Last time there were organizations and mosques inciting to riots, now there are individual Muslim ready to kill for Allah.

"The situation could get out of Allah's hands, hints the imam.

Sheik said, "anything can happen." Seems like the worst is to come.

[Sephardi]

The original cartoon was drawn by a Jewish woman living in Hebron. She was sentenced by an Israeli court to two years in prison for trying to affix it to an Arab-owned shop front.

What the hell? Jews sentencing other Jews to prison in the Jewish homeland for drawing a picture of a prophet of another religion? This is madness.

[Godstud]

She was sentenced by an Israeli court to two years in prison for trying to affix it to an Arab-owned shop front.

She was trying to incite violence or participating in something that could be construed as a hate crime. Why should her being a Jew make her above the law? Suggesting otherwise is madness.

[astuc]

They are acting like babies. What kind of god needs support from a bunch of whiners. At least they weren't killing anybody. If some one says they want to live in peace you know they are threatening violence. Ban all of those murderous followers of the god of Abraham. They feign offense to show piety.

[Fasces]

Yes, this was a peaceful protest. This does not, however, excuse the fact that such an event should not even be protested. They are literally protesting the practice of freedom of speech by a newspaper editor. If we can allow them the freedom to protest, we ourselves should be allowed to criticize the reasons behind it.

Using political correctness as a tool for censorship is deplorable regardless of whom ever does it. In Europe, however, it is becoming obvious that the Islamic community is using this beyond any reasonable amount. They are insisting that the world accomodate their own needs, wheras extremists in both Christianity and Judaism make no similar insistence. Pork, for example, is as dirty to the Jewish man as the Muslim, but it is the Muslim that demands that a pizza shop, nursing home, or diplomatic summit not only accommodate their own needs, but force such a view on others.

Islam does not belong in Europe, let alone Norway. I do not care that they protested peacefully. There was no reason for protest, and they should not have been in the country to protest to begin with.

[Godstud]

They are literally protesting the practice of freedom of speech by a newspaper editor. If we can allow them the freedom to protest, we ourselves should be allowed to criticize the reasons behind it.

^^
QFT
You hit the nail on the head , Fasces!

[Eauz]

Islam does not belong in Europe, let alone Norway. I do not care that they protested peacefully. There was no reason for protest, and they should not have been in the country to protest to begin with.

Why should Islam not exist in Europe, while Western values and liberalism are often developed with force throughout the world? If we expect Western values to exist in numerous countries, why should we assume that it is unacceptable for Islamic values to be developed in the West? I guess my answer might come from your user name, but if you don't want Islamic values in the West, the best option would be to remove all influence of Western values from the rest of the world.

[Fasces]

I do not want, advocate, nor support cultural imperialism of any sort - whether Islam in Europe, or liberalism in Iran. I am a strong supporter of cultural self-determination, as hundreds of my posts would illustrate.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Like Cartertonian said, "Someone blashpemes Mohammed - and the majority of the Muslim world takes offence.". This is true and the reason why violence, etc. gets sparked from a 'peaceful protest'.

There are over a billion muslims worldwide - how many muslims do you think acted violently all up in the 3 years since this started? - a few hundred? Almost certainly not much more - so whichever way you look at it, it was a miniscule percentage. If the majority of the muslim world really did take offense, then I'd say the reaction to it indicates a remarkable degree of restraint by the international muslim community.

Really, who are the extremists here? Who is really being intollerant? These actions by the newspapers are culturally incentive at best and inciting hatred at worst. Neither should be defended even if technically they are allowed in a free society. Muslims don't expect people to understand why this causes offense, but merely to behave in a way that respects their beliefs -as the vast majority of muslims would behave towards non-muslims. But the intolerance doesn't stop there - not only are inciters defended, but muslims are not even allowed to be offended, and are not allowed to peacefully protest against it. Most sickening of all is when peaceful actions by muslims in Europe are slammed purely based on what other muslims do on the other side of the world.

Islam does not belong in Europe, let alone Norway. I do not care that they protested peacefully. There was no reason for protest, and they should not have been in the country to protest to begin with.

And its people like you who complain that muslims are not assimilating. I'd suggest it is you who does not fit in with a free and democratic society.

[Eauz]

I do not want, advocate, nor support cultural imperialism of any sort - whether Islam in Europe, or liberalism in Iran. I am a strong supporter of cultural self-determination, as hundreds of my posts would illustrate.

Right, but you, on the international stage are of little importance. So, for many people in the Islamic world who might oppose the existence of liberalism within their society, they have had to have it forced down their throat from Western countries, while only recently have we seen problems with Islam in the West? If they've had to put up with these failed policies of liberalism in their own country, why can't we put up with their cultural values over here?

Until the West removes its cultural and economic imperialist goals throughout the world, I don't see what moral footing the rest of us have to stand on and complain about the evils of another cultural value being implemented into our society.

[Fasces]

You referred specifically to my opposition. In any case, while the governments of the West may not have the moral position to protest (and I remind you that, with the exception of a few individuals within a government, it certainly does more to defend than protest) I as an individual can vote in protest both of the liberalisation of the world and the cultural imperialism my government both commits and allows to be committed.

And its people like you who complain that muslims are not assimilating.

To be Muslim is by definition to be unable to assimilate. Europe is a secular continent, with a Christian tradition.

[GandalfTheGrey]

To be Muslim is by definition to be unable to assimilate. Europe is a secular continent, with a Christian tradition.

And yet, the muslims in Europe are overwhelmingly assimilating into this secular tradition - you apparently are not.

[Photonmaton]

I think Islam has some major insecurities about its masculinity. Cloaking their slave-women, getting butthurt about infidels so much as depicting their pedoprophet. Man up, or be irradiated. The civilized Euro and Sinnic world is not going to tolerate you much longer. Especiallly the latter.

[Fasces]

And yet, the muslims in Europe are overwhelmingly assimilating into this secular tradition - you apparently are not.

Source? Most reports I have seen indicate that the Islamic community in Europe is almost totally unassimilated, even after many generations.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Source? Most reports I have seen indicate that the Islamic community in Europe is almost totally unassimilated, even after many generations

I guess you missed the irony of a European having to rely on "most reports I have seen" to conclude that muslims are not integrating...

I think Islam has some major insecurities about its masculinity. Cloaking their slave-women, getting butthurt about infidels so much as depicting their pedoprophet.

People generally are insecure about being insulted - muslims are no exception. The cartoons, like this post of yours is deliberately provocative and designed to insult. What do you think generally happens when you insult people Photonmaton? You can insult people and tell them to "man up" about it, but you also better "man up" and expect a reaction to it.

[Photonmaton]

People generally are insecure about being insulted - muslims are no exception. The cartoons, like this post of yours is deliberately provocative and designed to insult. What do you think generally happens when you insult people Photonmaton? You can insult people and tell them to "man up" about it, but you also better "man up" and expect a reaction to it.

Yet even the holier-than-thou Christians don't seem to be bombing financial centers and declaring fatwas against all involved in the making of "Religulous" and "Jesus Camp". How many third-wave feminists (most embedded in professorships and positions of social influence) have been hunted down by Christians for declaring men to be obsolete and that "justice" entails eliminating 90% of them, It's interesting how you feel so inclined to give the benefit of insurmountable doubt to actual backward, intolerant bigots...

[Godstud]

Muslims have a lot to learn about peaceful protest. One group protests peacefully but this only drives on the zealots who take this as declaring open season on the offenders. Even the Imam who was interviewed about the cartoon was hinting at violence.

Freedom of speech sometimes mean you are going to offend people. Muslims have to learn to understand that their freedom of religion is only being protected by the same rights that protect freedom of speech. If they choose not to respect the rights of people to free speech, then they have no right to be offended when their right to their religion is quashed.

Instead of protesting free speech they should be preaching tolerance. A simple letter to the paper about the offending cartoon would have been sufficient and garnered the same response.

[GandalfTheGrey]

actual backward, intolerant bigots

Funny, but thats the description I would use to describe people who deliberately go out of their way to offend certain people. And thats exactly what the cartoonist did - there was no other purpose to it. Still, as I said before, the actual number of people who reacted violently is absolutely miniscule - you completely ignore the 99.9% of muslims who turned the other cheek - and especially the large number of muslims who publicly condemned the few incidents of violence by muslims.

Instead of protesting free speech they should be preaching tolerance.

that is just simply idiotic. They were (peacefully) protesting against intolerance - which is basically synonymous with "preaching tolerance". And what is this free speech? Rather than asking what inciters can speak, perhaps you should be asking what they should speak. What is the purpose of free speech? Is it simply to say whatever you can for no other purpose than to deliberately offend people? Wow thats constructive - "lets piss these people off - because we can"

[Photonmaton]

Funny, but thats the description I would use to describe people who deliberately go out of their way to offend certain people. And thats exactly what the cartoonist did - there was no other purpose to it. Still, as I said before, the actual number of people who reacted violently is absolutely miniscule - you completely ignore the 99.9% of muslims who turned the other cheek - and especially the large number of muslims who publicly condemned the few incidents of violence by muslims.

And criticizing an idea is bigoted, as long as it upsets someone to enough to murder the criticizer? No, the moderate christian =/= the moderate muslim. Your post is like saying because there were only a few terrorists directly involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks that the rest of the Muslims do not hold any more bigoted or dysfunctionally intolerant views than the "moderate" Christian, Buddhist, Hindu...basically every other creed. Do you ever wonder why Islam has conflicts in every place it hasn't subjugat-- I mean, Umma'd yet? From the US to Europe to India to China to The Phillipines...there seems to be a common denominator!

[Godstud]

Wow thats constructive - "lets piss these people off - because we can"

In this instance though, the cartoon was not meant to piss anyone off or offend Mulsims. It was simply designed to show that the police were being racist with their website. These people are looking for things to be pissed off at and are being overly sensitive. Understanding the context means nothing if they can cry outrage and raise all Muslims in a mini-Jihad.

The protesters are peaceful in that one single protest, but it's not all about that one protest, (they were not protesting intolerance either) but the aftermath and fallout from that protest. Once more Muslims learn of it and blow it all out of proportion, they initiate strikes, issue fatwas, assassinate people and start riots in their religious fervor and outrage. They totally ignore others rights as soon as the possibility of their religion being even slightly insulted(even by misunderstanding).