[ihallhou]

Poll below

[annatar1914]

Funny, there doesn't seem to be any option for agreement with Trump, lol

[Potemkin]

Funny, there doesn't seem to be any option for agreement with Trump, lol

That’s coz there just ain’t no reason for treason.

[Tainari88]

I still want to see Bush Jr in jail for invading Iraq and killing a bunch of innocent civilians with pretensions of their being WMDs in Iraq even though the UN inspector guy said there wasn't.

His father Bush Sr. bombed Panama talking about Noriega was a drug dealer...when he was on the CIA payroll for years. He just said No when Bush wanted a Yes. So a bunch of innocent people get killed. For me killing innocent people over some political bullshit that is not justified in the least is way worse than lying to banks on how much your fraud properties are worth. Lol. I do not see lying to bankers as a crime. I heard dropping off of Forbes list of the 400 most wealthy Americans pissed off Trump badly. Most of those rich types want to keep a low profile about how much money they actually have. While Trump wants to inflate his fraud shit to the moon and back so he can get some banks to roll their dough towards him. I would not be surprised if Trump has sold some state classified secrets to Putin and others for big bucks in some way. Bail his own ass out so he does not live in horrid poverty on some measly millions only a year. Haha. These egomaniacs are out of control.Lol. Killing innocent people in unjustified wars are a big crime. Invading nations with fake pretenses of WMDs that do not exist in reality because? You are going to bring democracy to Iraq? Lol.

[annatar1914]

That’s coz there just ain’t no reason for treason.

@Potemkin :

I'm not even sure what treason means in this context: can one be a rebel against a rebel if one is a loyalist? And is it possible to go against the letter of the law if one intends to maintain it's spirit?

It's all rather confusing, lol

[Tainari88]

@Potemkin :

I'm not even sure what treason means in this context: can one be a rebel against a rebel if one is a loyalist? And is it possible to go against the letter of the law if one intends to maintain it's spirit?

It's all rather confusing, lol

If the politicians in both parties were completely honest with themselves? How many of them have gotten away with a lot of dirty moves they have done and none of them landed in jail because they are above the law Annatar1914? Bush Jr, Bush Sr, Clinton, Reagan, etc a lot of them all did very shady stuff. They were just way better at keeping it covered up and buttoned down.

Trump is a lot more open about his moves is all Annatar.

Biden has always used his political establishment connections to favor his own pockets. That is the reality of it.

Nancy Pelosi had inside information on a lot of investment deals. Her husband invested in stocks and so on that were privileged. If someone who had to obey the investment rules there would have been arrested or charged for such information leaks. But the politicians do that all the time.

Trump is a dirtball but he is not as intelligent with covering up his conflict of interests and naked pandering to donors and others...he even made 7 million dollars from his mugshot.

Reagan had Ollie North do an Iran Contra deal that was illegal because the Congress of the US did not approve it and he did not do the legal proceedings. All of them do shady deals. It usually either benefits them financially or legally. In 1986 during the Reagan administration California passed an Amnesty program for undocumented workers because the Agricultural industry which is very powerful in the state of California needed to have their slave labor break unions and get their profits up. They had Reagan's tough talk on immigration that is illegal walked back and put away. Reagan got a lot of donations for his being able to please his base in California. It is about who has money and is willing to sell their political influence. Most of it is very illegal.

[annatar1914]

If the politicians in both parties were completely honest with themselves? How many of them have gotten away with a lot of dirty moves they have done and none of them landed in jail because they are above the law Annatar1914? Bush Jr, Bush Sr, Clinton, Reagan, etc a lot of them all did very shady stuff. They were just way better at keeping it covered up and buttoned down.

Trump is a lot more open about his moves is all Annatar.

Biden has always used his political establishment connections to favor his own pockets. That is the reality of it.

Nancy Pelosi had inside information on a lot of investment deals. Her husband invested in stocks and so on that were privileged. If someone who had to obey the investment rules there would have been arrested or charged for such information leaks. But the politicians do that all the time.

Trump is a dirtball but he is not as intelligent with covering up his conflict of interests and naked pandering to donors and others...he even made 7 million dollars from his mugshot.

Reagan had Ollie North do an Iran Contra deal that was illegal because the Congress of the US did not approve it and he did not do the legal proceedings. All of them do shady deals. It usually either benefits them financially or legally. In 1986 during the Reagan administration California passed an Amnesty program for undocumented workers because the Agricultural industry which is very powerful in the state of California needed to have their slave labor break unions and get their profits up. They had Reagan's tough talk on immigration that is illegal walked back and put away. Reagan got a lot of donations for his being able to please his base in California. It is about who has money and is willing to sell their political influence. Most of it is very illegal.

@Tainari88

Aside from my somewhat facetious remark, I actually have to disagree with something you wrote unfortunately. I think that President Trump is really more smart than most politicians, he knows that a brazen lie is more believable to people than a wriggling and shady half truth or equivocation.

He just does not care. And it has worked for him all this time, so he doesn't have to be clever about it or conceal it. He plays his enemies like a violin in any case, using techniques that make regular politics child's play engaged in by children in comparison. He knows the world and how it works, and it wouldn't improve his position if he tried obfuscating it.

[Godstud]

No, @ihallhou . Trump never attempted to overthrow the USA.

Your poll is idiotic. Fix it and add OTHER and leave out the childish bias.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, it is not treason.

Nazis and child abusers want democratic representation too.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88

Aside from my somewhat facetious remark, I actually have to disagree with something you wrote unfortunately. I think that President Trump is really more smart than most politicians, he knows that a brazen lie is more believable to people than a wriggling and shady half truth or equivocation.

He just does not care. And it has worked for him all this time, so he doesn't have to be clever about it or conceal it. He plays his enemies like a violin in any case, using techniques that make regular politics child's play engaged in by children in comparison. He knows the world and how it works, and it wouldn't improve his position if he tried obfuscating it.

Annatar, I have read a lot of politicians and their speeches and biographies over the years. Trump is great at self promotion. I will hand him that.

But that I find him super intelligent and well educated, eloquent, and his politics attractive? Not at all.

I would say out of all of the US presidents the most 'decent' in terms of behavior was Jimmy Carter.

The most underhanded and racist was Woodrow Wilson.

One of the most intellectually brilliant? John Adams, and John Quincy Adams.

I think one of the most talented at politics was without a doubt Thomas Jefferson.

The most blah and not very memorable Gerald Ford.

The one with the best speaking voice. Barack Hussein Obama. Great voice. He even could carry a tune well.

A lot of these presidents were very interesting. As human beings.

[ingliz]

I chose option 2.

If the state isn't willing to bar him from standing under the 14th Amendment or employ someone to do some wet work - 'no man, no problem,' as Stalin used to say - it's their fault if everything turns to shit.

You can't blame his supporters for voting for him if his name is on the ballot.

[annatar1914]

Annatar, I have read a lot of politicians and their speeches and biographies over the years. Trump is great at self promotion. I will hand him that.

But that I find him super intelligent and well educated, eloquent, and his politics attractive? Not at all.

I would say out of all of the US presidents the most 'decent' in terms of behavior was Jimmy Carter.

The most underhanded and racist was Woodrow Wilson.

One of the most intellectually brilliant? John Adams, and John Quincy Adams.

I think one of the most talented at politics was without a doubt Thomas Jefferson.

The most blah and not very memorable Gerald Ford.

The one with the best speaking voice. Barack Hussein Obama. Great voice. He even could carry a tune well.

A lot of these presidents were very interesting. As human beings.

@Tainari88 :

Not fond of James Buchanan.

Donald Trump is not one to underestimate, people buy his schtick whether friend or foe and so carelessly fall into his traps every time. And deservedly so.

[Potemkin]

@Potemkin :

I'm not even sure what treason means in this context: can one be a rebel against a rebel if one is a loyalist? And is it possible to go against the letter of the law if one intends to maintain it's spirit?

It's all rather confusing, lol

Were Brutus and Cassius traitors when they conspired to assassinate Caesar? What about Cato or Cicero? They opposed Caesar and then Octavian, whom they saw as a threat to the Republic. Did that make them traitors? For that matter, was Caesar a traitor or the saviour of Rome? Was Octavian a traitor while he was Octavian, but a patriot when he was Augustus?

This is the moral conundrum of any Revolution….

[Tainari88]

Were Brutus and Cassius traitors when they conspired to assassinate Caesar? What about Cato or Cicero? They opposed Caesar and then Octavian, whom they saw as a threat to the Republic. Did that make them traitors? For that matter, was Caesar a traitor or the saviour of Rome? Was Octavian a traitor while he was Octavian, but a patriot when he was Augustus?

This is the moral conundrum of any Revolution….

One nation's patriots inevitably become another nation's traitors. One nation's freedom fighters become another nation's terrorists.

It is all about who the victors are in history. They write the pages of history to benefit their point of view.

Society is society. It is not purely scientific because humans are not purely scientific and strictly logical in thought. Their outcomes in human history are not ultra-predictable. But, it never stops those who want to control the world from attempting to control the world.

I for one, do not like Donald Trump in the least. I do not find his manipulations attractive or even desirable in a president of a major power in the world. But for me? American politics I find in general not chockful of extremely intelligent and kind and humane leadership. It is about how many regular voters who bother to show up at the polls find a guy they can have a beer with and not throw up during the conversation. The USA has not had really engaging leadership in an extremely long time. How about you Pote? In the UK---who would you find engaging that has been in 10 Downing Street? Lol. I can't even take that Truss seriously or that Boris man, or the latest PM. Rishi dude. I mean the UK looks bad...with the bad leadership. Is that the best the UK political machinery can come up with?

For me? I much prefer Latin American politicians. They are far more eloquent with language and they are straightforward if they are Right Wing they are consistent. They do not give one flying bean about the lower classes. Are class snobs, and unapologetic exploiters and sellouts in general pursuing their own personal wealth at the public masses expense.

They kiss ass to their social and economic betters and are self serving bastards in general.

The Left are a lot more principled but they tend to have a lot of pressure from many sides. Some of them compromise to survive and wind up getting crime getting worse and delinquency not being contained due to the bankruptcy of the state that are often left behind by the Right Wing in Latam. It is hard. A very hard scenario.

But, things in general are improving.

[Potemkin]

One nation's patriots inevitably become another nation's traitors. One nation's freedom fighters become another nation's terrorists.

It is all about who the victors are in history. They write the pages of history to benefit their point of view.

If a revolution succeeds, then its leaders become the new Establishment and the history books sing their praises. Until the next successful revolution, that is. Lol. But if a revolution fails, then its leaders are condemned as fools and traitors. Until one of the attempted revolutions later succeeds, and they suddenly become glorious forerunners who guided their nation towards freedom. The bottom line is that most people want to end up on the winning side and worship success and power. Political or moral principles mean little to them.

Society is society. It is not purely scientific because humans are not purely scientific and strictly logical in thought. Their outcomes in human history are not ultra-predictable. But, it never stops those who want to control the world from attempting to control the world.

Human society is not a machine. It is an organic, living thing, and as such will always be capable of surprising and unpredictable behaviour. But the broad outlines of the way that societies develop and evolve are clear, and that evolution is driven by changes in the mode of economic production of that society.

I for one, do not like Donald Trump in the least. I do not find his manipulations attractive or even desirable in a president of a major power in the world. But for me? American politics I find in general not chockful of extremely intelligent and kind and humane leadership. It is about how many regular voters who bother to show up at the polls find a guy they can have a beer with and not throw up during the conversation. The USA has not had really engaging leadership in an extremely long time. How about you Pote? In the UK---who would you find engaging that has been in 10 Downing Street? Lol. I can't even take that Truss seriously or that Boris man, or the latest PM. Rishi dude. I mean the UK looks bad...with the bad leadership. Is that the best the UK political machinery can come up with?

I’m afraid so, @Tainari88 - the UK produces possibly the most bland politicians in the world. And when they’re not bland, they tend to be selfish buffoons like Boris Johnson. And yes, that’s the best we can come up with. Lol.

For me? I much prefer Latin American politicians. They are far more eloquent with language and they are straightforward if they are Right Wing they are consistent. They do not give one flying bean about the lower classes. Are class snobs, and unapologetic exploiters and sellouts in general pursuing their own personal wealth at the public masses expense.

They kiss ass to their social and economic betters and are self serving bastards in general.

The Left are a lot more principled but they tend to have a lot of pressure from many sides. Some of them compromise to survive and wind up getting crime getting worse and delinquency not being contained due to the bankruptcy of the state that are often left behind by the Right Wing in Latam. It is hard. A very hard scenario.

But, things in general are improving.

Once enough people get tired enough of the same old corruption, the same old oppression and the same old bullshit, then they will apply enough pressure on the system to change things. The working people don’t usually realise how powerful they can be. If they work together then they can change the world forever, and no force can hope to stand against them.

[Tainari88]

@Potemkin wrote:

I’m afraid so, @Tainari88 - the UK produces possibly the most bland politicians in the world. And when they’re not bland, they tend to be selfish buffoons like Boris Johnson. And yes, that’s the best we can come up with. Lol.

How do you stand that bland stuff or buffoon shit? I got to be at least entertained.

And there are speeches from the Right that are really fiery too. None of them are boring speakers. I do not know how you tolerate those bores Potemkin.

[annatar1914]

Were Brutus and Cassius traitors when they conspired to assassinate Caesar? What about Cato or Cicero? They opposed Caesar and then Octavian, whom they saw as a threat to the Republic. Did that make them traitors? For that matter, was Caesar a traitor or the saviour of Rome? Was Octavian a traitor while he was Octavian, but a patriot when he was Augustus?

This is the moral conundrum of any Revolution….

@Potemkin :

It really is my friend. I suppose at my most pessimistic moments I think that it doesn't matter as long as the wicked restrain the more wicked, and all have something rather than most having nothing at all.

At my more optimistic, I bow my head at God's wisdom, using such crooked timber as He does for the greater good. But for prosperity or for chastisement I cannot say.

[Rancid]

Who actually believes this?
" No, Trump won't try again to overthrow democracy. "

Listen to the speeches he has been giving the last year or two. He has stated repeatedly that's basically what he plans to do.

[Tainari88]

@Potemkin :

It really is my friend. I suppose at my most pessimistic moments I think that it doesn't matter as long as the wicked restrain the more wicked, and all have something rather than most having nothing at all.

At my more optimistic, I bow my head at God's wisdom, using such crooked timber as He does for the greater good. But for prosperity or for chastisement I cannot say.

There has to be a point Annatar where you refuse to vote for a crooked timber hoping he straightens out. No. You vote for a decent and intelligent, informed, and shrewd politician with ethics and a very great education. Not some horror conman from Queens. Or your establishment business as usual Democrat candidate on his way to a nursing home. It has to change.

I do not understand why people want to lower standards and lower them constantly. No one wants to eat junk food 24/7. Who the hell wants junk food for three meals a day? It will kill you quick.

Get some substance in politics. Do not go for the lowest common denominator.

Go for a decent prez that does not want to become rich and corrupt and live with airs and egos. Someone who suffered and gained power through wisdom and appealing to common sense politics.

Like this guy:
José Mujica, nicknamed Pepe Mujica, was President of Uruguay from 2010 to 2015. A former Tupamaros freedom fighter in the 60s and the 70s, he was detained, like a hostage by the dictatorship between 1973 and 1985. He advocates a philosophy of life focused on sobriety: learn to live with what is necessary and fairest.

Get a decent human being. Why does it have to be some conman creep with a big ego or some underhanded lifelong establishment sellout politician?

[annatar1914]

There has to be a point Annatar where you refuse to vote for a crooked timber hoping he straightens out. No. You vote for a decent and intelligent, informed, and shrewd politician with ethics and a very great education. Not some horror conman from Queens. Or your establishment business as usual Democrat candidate on his way to a nursing home. It has to change.

I do not understand why people want to lower standards and lower them constantly. No one wants to eat junk food 24/7. Who the hell wants junk food for three meals a day? It will kill you quick.

Get some substance in politics. Do not go for the lowest common denominator.

Go for a decent prez that does not want to become rich and corrupt and live with airs and egos. Someone who suffered and gained power through wisdom and appealing to common sense politics.

Like this guy:
José Mujica, nicknamed Pepe Mujica, was President of Uruguay from 2010 to 2015. A former Tupamaros freedom fighter in the 60s and the 70s, he was detained, like a hostage by the dictatorship between 1973 and 1985. He advocates a philosophy of life focused on sobriety: learn to live with what is necessary and fairest.

Get a decent human being. Why does it have to be some conman creep with a big ego or some underhanded lifelong establishment sellout politician?

I guess that the point I was making is that people can survive almost anyone being in power. But not everyone agrees on the morality of political revolution. Because I think that it's not only an option but an obligation to resist evil by force, I don't have those moral qualms.

But not only morality is involved. So too is strategy.