[Pants-of-dog]

So even if we look only at haplotypes found in a select few rural residents whose grandparents all came from the same area, we can still not find a genetic marker that encompasses all of England and is distinct to England.

This can be deduced from the quoted text.

[FiveofSwords]

You're funny.

https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Great-Powers/dp/0679720197/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3JVC403HUSIYS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MjH46itM_UuLWDExBoxObaF9wUwqtJupJ7bnBUuy457tVF1HXdXGm8E-7vioQIfNG3Yv3dUK2gz-HPxVxj1he9PEQyChXjHsTtmxJaEghYs6RwroVfYXJ2no_lTNZ8W27sNyzBvt_h0aSONXCHaHwHaW1a8i_FpcHIPnOq4wQ_3kwGysdgdYy8i1rEr6DhgvH_tcbRJjI51OGQTVU-Ma8EKTFJ0F9rFUKpXtiecTwko.fgncB-UmoRFOuOHiajyikLkvIsQZ2_VcEeh3C3Cmj9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=paul+kennedy+rise+and+fall&qid=1713972886&sprefix=paul+kennedy%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1

Not so long ago., if a person was to be considered educated, they were expected to have read this: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-decli ... on/520703/

I'm guessing it would also be 'word salad' for you and would remind you of the scholastics. Gibbon likewise was a writer from an era when Europeans were more educated and intelligent than they are today.

[ingliz]

an era when Europeans were more educated and intelligent than they are today.

More bollocks!

Edward Gibbon FRS (8 May 1737 – 16 January 1794)

The literacy rate in England in the 1750s

64.5% (L. Stone, 1969)

The literacy rate in England in 2022

99% (ONS)

[FiveofSwords]

So even if we look only at haplotypes found in a select few rural residents whose grandparents all came from the same area, we can still not find a genetic marker that encompasses all of England and is distinct to England.

This can be deduced from the quoted text.

Uh...there isn't an 'England gene'...if that is what you mean. That isn't how genes work. There also isn't a 'human gene'. But you can determine with very high certainty whether a person is English by examining their dna...just like you could determine if they are human

[FiveofSwords]

More bollocks!

Edward Gibbon FRS (8 May 1737 – 16 January 1794)

The literacy rate in England in the 1750s

64.5% (L. Stone, 1969)

The literacy rate in England in 2022

99% (ONS)

Illiterate people in England in 1750 were far more educated and intelligent than the nost celebrated intellectuals of the current era. Modernity simply caused massive brain damage.

[FiveofSwords]

So even if we look only at haplotypes found in a select few rural residents whose grandparents all came from the same area, we can still not find a genetic marker that encompasses all of England and is distinct to England.

This can be deduced from the quoted text.

Try to think of it like this, if you can understand. There is no single letter that will inform you whether you are reading a batman or a superman comic. Butbif you read the entire comic, you can probably distinguish it as a batman or superman comic. Genes work in a similar fashion.

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

Your faith in over-interpreted commercial DNA testing is touching.

but

Autosomal DNA, the most common kind of DNA testing sold commercially, cannot reach farther than five or six generations.

and

Y DNA and mtDNA have strict inheritance patterns that limit their use.

Y DNA testing is only available for genetic males, and looks only at paternal lineage: a man’s father and his father and his father, etc.

mtDNA testing looks exclusively at the maternal lineage, a woman's or man's mother, and her mother and her mother, etc.

Relatives who don’t fall into those lineages—such as your mother’s father’s mother’s people—are untouched by your YDNA and mtDNA tests.

When @Fasces called your crowing over the purity of your line "horseshit", he was correct.

It's impossible to know what lurks within.

[late]

Not so long ago., if a person was to be considered educated, they were expected to have read this: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-decli ... on/520703/

I'm guessing it would also be 'word salad' for you and would remind you of the scholastics. Gibbon likewise was a writer from an era when Europeans were more educated and intelligent than they are today.

Been a while since 1781...

I favor the economic analysis of history, where applicable. One of the strengths of that Kennedy book is the charts; which cover economic growth and decline.

History changed a lot during the 20th century, as disciplines from accounting to zoology were brought to bear. It's like you are saying the telegraph is more sophisticated than a dedicated AI server...

[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

Your faith in over-interpreted commercial DNA testing is touching.

but

Autosomal DNA, the most common kind of DNA testing sold commercially, cannot reach farther than five or six generations.

and

Y DNA and mtDNA have strict inheritance patterns that limit their use.

Y DNA testing is only available for genetic males, and looks only at paternal lineage: a man’s father and his father and his father, etc.

mtDNA testing looks exclusively at the maternal lineage, a woman's or man's mother, and her mother and her mother, etc.

Relatives who don’t fall into those lineages—such as your mother’s father’s mother’s people—are untouched by your YDNA and mtDNA tests.

When @Fasces called your crowing over the purity of your line "horseshit", he was correct.

It's impossible to know what lurks within.

Dude, if you go back far enough your ancestors were literally fish.

We are not fish.

Life forms change over time. It is called evolution.

Therefore the most recent generations are all that really matter anyway...if you want to know what you as an individual actually are.

[FiveofSwords]

Been a while since 1781...

I favor the economic analysis of history, where applicable. One of the strengths of that Kennedy book is the charts; which cover economic growth and decline.

History changed a lot during the 20th century, as disciplines from accounting to zoology were brought to bear. It's like you are saying the telegraph is more sophisticated than a dedicated AI server...

It's like that I guess lol...but what I am actually saying is that the people who made the telegraph were far more sophisticated than the people who made ai servers. So see, it's actually different (if you can logic).

[ingliz]

Modernity simply caused massive brain damage

Are you saying you are brain-damaged and can't help yourself?

Are you blaming the content of your posts on a medical condition?

Are we supposed to pity you?

[Pants-of-dog]

Uh...there isn't an 'England gene'...if that is what you mean. That isn't how genes work. There also isn't a 'human gene'. But you can determine with very high certainty whether a person is English by examining their dna...just like you could determine if they are human

I did not say anything about a gene. I said “haplotype”.

And the evidence suggests that you cannot tell if someone is from England by looking at their genes.

You might be able to do this with a very few rural residents of some parts of England, but even then, you would have to make assumptions about migration.

[Tainari88]

@late the issue is evolution. It never stops. We are all related to each other. All of the groups on Earth are able to interbreed and can and do produce fertile offspring. All of us. The ones that have certain traits have them as part of the adaptational nature of mutations. Some of the mutations do not have any real function. Others do. Some mutations cause an effect on a population. Others just lie dormant.

That is why I put in the video about Malthus's peas. Charles Darwin was catching hell at the beginning of his theory of evolution. Mainly from the theological community. Who thought he was undermining creationism. When he received another manuscript from some priest? He wrongly assumed it was another religious theologian giving him hell without being analytical. In fact, it was the key to making the theory tie together well. Malthus was handing him the missing link to his theory. He left that manuscript unread.

That is what happens when you assume your enemy is wrong and has nothing of knowledge to contribute. Like the racists who ignore Jewish academics for being Jews, or Latin American anthropologists for being Latin Americans, or some stupid ass idea. That is the issue with all of that.

You need to have a sense of fairness and justice. Does that person or thinker have something valuable to say? The ego gets in the way, the racism gets in the way, the sexism gets in the way, the prejudices and biases get in the way, the need to be violent and kill others who disagree gets in the way, and you LOSE your ability to be rational and humane.

Then they wonder why they do not make progress and are not being listened to eh?

[late]

It's like that I guess lol...but what I am actually saying is that the people who made the telegraph were far more sophisticated than the people who made ai servers. So see, it's actually different (if you can logic).

You keep making me laugh.

You don't know how to do history, you have never studied it in depth, and you entertain marvelous delusions of competence.

Oh, well..

[late]

Malthus

This is not the ideal place to put this, but it's one of my favorite moments in science.

Malthus cheated. Turns out he was right, so it's quietly ignored, but I've always gotten a kick out of that.

[Tainari88]

This is not the ideal place to put this, but it's one of my favorite moments in science.

Malthus cheated. Turns out he was right, so it's quietly ignored, but I've always gotten a kick out of that.

Yes he was right. Lol.

The problem is going to be why the Nazis want to believe that their group whatever they deem that group is? Is naturally by nature and science superior to the others?

There are always people wanting some neat package. Something that can be pointed to that says....we have a right to power, and to rule the roost because we got the goods. We are the best, better than all the rest...better than anyone...anyone I ever met.

The Egyptians thought that too. So did the Aztecs, and the Byzantine Empire, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, many of the Qing Dynasties of China, who thought China was the Middle Kingdom. In the middle of the world. The middle of all of the reality of humankind. They all think that way.

Lol. But the racists now have to prove they are.

They can't go back to Europe and reclaim land there. That is the old World and it is all about old land with old land rights. The American Nazis are rejected there. Not only for their Nazism but the Europeans already have been invaded by other armies in other parts of Europe. The British were bombed by Germany, the Russians were invaded by Germany, the French were invaded and did invasions, the Poles, and the Netherlands were invaded by Germany, the Finns by the Russians, the x by the y. It is OLD. They are not going for Simply the Best, better than all the rest. Better than anyone.

Colonialism is a failed experiment. That they continue to think that using force means only the strong survive? What would they like? The Chinese to take over the entire world and force everyone to believe the Han are the Best, better than all the rest, better than anyone, you guys are inferior...you suck unless you look like us, you got to be us, to be the best, or have to be doing what we say, because we believe in bullshit...that we can't prove....because the modern world hasn't made any progress. I want to live in 1809 or in 1950....Back to the Nazi Twilight Zone.

They can't use violence according to the Five guy.

It is not politically smart. But they need to get more white people to join forces but not use violence. Their weapons are what now? Hate speech?

If all you have to distinguish yourself with is a color and to rally around the word 'white' and 'race'? And you were born in that color code gene? You did nothing to earn anything there....you are just born that way? How is that superior? because history says that our race is naturally great? How? By being the most nasty and warmongering and greedy? How is that the letter of recommendation of greatness? You got to be rational, logical and actually work on something that makes life better for society.

Not waste your short time on Earth trying to put others down, and trying to get people to fall to their knees so you can feel tall via force, hate or control that you never earned through something positive but only through barbarism and denial of scientific proof.

It is ridiculous.

[FiveofSwords]

I did not say anything about a gene. I said “haplotype”.

And the evidence suggests that you cannot tell if someone is from England by looking at their genes.

You might be able to do this with a very few rural residents of some parts of England, but even then, you would have to make assumptions about migration.

A haplotype is just determined by specific dna on the y chromosome that doesn't change much over time. It tells you basically nothing unless you are tracking ancient migrations. A person of any race can be of any haplotype. It has absolutrly nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

Now I am not from England, but I do have a lot of English ancestry...and yes scientists can tell that from my dna. Dna is like that.

[Tainari88]

A haplotype is just determined by specific dna on the y chromosome that doesn't change much over time. It tells you basically nothing unless you are tracking ancient migrations. A person of any race can be of any haplotype. It has absolutrly nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

Now I am not from England, but I do have a lot of English ancestry...and yes scientists can tell that from my dna. Dna is like that.

What does it mean though? Does it mean you are more intelligent than the average? I have my doubts. Lol.

English means what? English can mean a person who is Down Syndrome. A person who is like Stephen Hawking a genius with serious physical impairments. Imperfections. A person who has MS, Cancer, deafness, etc. What does English mean in that context?

Again, what and why should people believe that being English means being superior to other ethnicities?

It is basically again socially constructed.

Who was Fagin the fictional character from Oliver Twist and Charles Dickens fictional writing? He was a bad guy. Exploiter of children, and a murderer. He was English. Did he represent all of the English people in the world? Was he the example of Englishness?

When you break down these explanations for purity? It is meaningless.

Again, you have a lot of variation within that group. It is never going to be a neat package.

Why is that so hard for the Nazi mentality to get?

Are you going to start with I am too intelligent for you...you do not understand me....I am the greatest of the greatest....oh, you are cliches, you are fools, the truth is there....Nazism has to be the answer....because? Why?

It better not be Nazi Twilight Zone.

[Pants-of-dog]

A haplotype is just determined by specific dna on the y chromosome that doesn't change much over time. It tells you basically nothing unless you are tracking ancient migrations. A person of any race can be of any haplotype. It has absolutrly nothing to do with anything we are discussing.

Now I am not from England, but I do have a lot of English ancestry...and yes scientists can tell that from my dna. Dna is like that.

You seem confused because of some incorrect assumptions you seem to be making.

Rather than have a boring discussion about what defines a haplotype, it should be noted that the genetic clusters mentioned in the quote are not present in many (perhaps most) people living in England.

[wat0n]

Race is scientifically arbitrary. It was created by some guy named Linnaeus who did wonderful things for taxonomy, but he extended it and created five categories for race - white, red, yellow, black and monster. We sort of picked it up and ran with it, but these differences aren't scientifically valid. They're based on a single observable feature - skin color - but not much else. Genetic variance within races is just as varied as it is between races. A man from Ghana and an Aborigine from Australia have little in common genetically even if some guy on the street would call them both 'black'. Same with an Inuit and a Quechua, or a Scot and a Syrian, or a Korean and a Tamil. Race doesn't exist, but ethnicity does.

Black has two meanings in the US - it refers to a race, which does not exist independent of belief in its existence, and an ethnic group, which does. Black became an ethnic group during the 17th to 19th centuries, in a process of ethnogenesis. Music, culture, and yes, genetic mixture from breeding, led to the creation of a black ethnicity in the US*. A recent Nigerian immigrant to the US is perceived as black [race], but he isn't black [ethnicity]. White folks tend to have the luxury of remembering their actual ethnicity, so there wasn't a similar ethnogenesis for 'white'. A black American calling himself black is equivalent to an Irish American calling himself Irish - not an Irish American calling himself white.

You can say "I am proud of being Italian. Italian pride." There is nothing wrong with this.

You can say "I am proud of being Black. Black pride." There is nothing wrong with this.

These are equivalent to each other - but neither are equivalent to saying: "I am proud of being white. White pride."

*There are other black ethnicities in the US with more specific names, such as Gullah. There are other black ethnicities in other new world countries, especially in the Caribbean.

How would you account for the ~5% of Americans who, when asked in the latest American Community Survey, identified their ancestry as just "American"/"United States"/"Texan"/"North American"? Of these, almost 80% identify as non-Hispanic White.

It seems this is beginning to change.