[QatzelOk]

At this point, @wat0n could call Hitler an antisemite and no one would pay attention.

This is because the definition of "anti-semitic" just changed recently. Dictionaries are very flexible in times of crisis, apparently.

So now that it means "critical of Israel's actions."

This means that it is "a sin" to criticize Israel's politics, including its ongoing genocide of the indigenous Palestinians.

What should one call *the sin* of criticizing New Zealand's foreign policy? What about the forbidden act of criticizing the foreign policy of Burkina Faso? The mortal sin of criticizing the actions of Guatemala's government?

Are these all some kind of forbidden sin by now? Or are we, like domestic dogs, expected to recoil from criticizing our master?


"I am not allowed to bark while the sountrack is playing...."

[Tainari88]

This is because the definition of "anti-semitic" just changed recently. Dictionaries are very flexible in times of crisis, apparently.

So now that it means "critical of Israel's actions."

This means that it is "a sin" to criticize Israel's politics, including its ongoing genocide of the indigenous Palestinians.

What should one call *the sin* of criticizing New Zealand's foreign policy? What about the forbidden act of criticizing the foreign policy of Burkina Faso? The mortal sin of criticizing the actions of Guatemala's government?

Are these all some kind of forbidden sin by now? Or are we, like domestic dogs, expected to recoil from criticizing our master?


"I am not allowed to bark while the sountrack is playing...."

Yes, that is precisely what it means. They want zero criticism and no accountability for any immoral horrors that they commit in the name of their countries. They got to get away with murder and let no one criticize their murderous ways.

That is how bad these assholes have gotten. When they lose their power completely I will not be crying for them. They are shameful, disgusting cowardly pieces of rotten shit!

[wat0n]

For the Western leftist, kidnapping, rape, torture and murder are all fine - as long as they are committed by their allies, and against the US and Israel. Yes, we know how that game is played.

Hence why the contemporary left is actually becoming more and more apologist for Hitler and has no issues with antisemitism, be it against Israeli or non-Israeli Jews.

[Rancid]

For the Western leftist, kidnapping, rape, torture and murder are all fine - as long as they are committed by their allies, and against the US and Israel. Yes, we know how that game is played.

Which gives rise to an equally terrible far right response, unfortunately. Perpetuating a never end cycle.

Hence why the contemporary left is actually becoming more and more apologist for Hitler and has no issues with antisemitism, be it against Israeli or non-Israeli Jews.

Positions of convenience, which is a feature of the far right as well.

As always, the far left and far right are two sides of the same wacko coin.

[wat0n]

Which gives rise to an equally terrible far right response, unfortunately. Perpetuating a never end cycle.

Indeed, and it is also why in the end the international community will have to provide long-term security guarantees to the Palestinians (first and foremost, actually) that no irrendentists will be allowed to stir up shit.

And you also illustrate another thing - if becoming hardline due to whatever crimes your population is victim off, why wouldn't Israel or even the West in general become hardline too? This also only applies to some, not all.

Positions of convenience, which is a feature of the far right as well.

As always, the far left and far right are two sides of the same wacko coin.

Indeed.

[Tainari88]

Which gives rise to an equally terrible far right response, unfortunately. Perpetuating a never end cycle.



Positions of convenience, which is a feature of the far right as well.

As always, the far left and far right are two sides of the same wacko coin.

I have never been wacko at anything. I never thought immoral acts on any one political side is acceptable.

But apologizing for children getting killed in the thousands and being bombed out of their homes and killing civilians for trying to get flour from trucks because they are starving? Humanitarian Aid workers getting killed by Israeli Forces? And how is it balanced to be thinking killing over 30,000 people is revenge for the October 7th attack? What kind of horrible shitty thought process is that?

These are CHILDREN for God's sake. They only know how to play and who takes care of them and who is going to put them to bed and be there for their protection. They deserve this fucking treatment @wat0n because you must be loyal to Netanyahu and Israel? That is insane!!!

It is GENOCIDE. That kind of mass extermination is inhumane, immoral, illegal in any international court and it is not justified. Ever. EVER.

All this killing has to STOP.

Wacko Left. No. I am not a wacko Left. I am a humanist. A HUMANIST. FIRST. Always. For me? Human Rights means something to me!! It is what my mother DIED for. To keep pollution from giving cancer to little children. That is what she died for. Not clapping and cheering on the death of babies and children! Little babies born too early and needing incubators and nothing there for them. Left to breathe and die like they are worthless for being born Palestinian. It is OUTRAGEOUS.

I need to go. Otherwise, the callousness displayed by people who are playing this fucking game with human lives is going to PISS ME OFF SOMETHING BADLY.

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 no, Palestinian children don't deserve to die.

Neither do Israeli children.

Yet as long as Hamas remains in power in Gaza, this will happen again. It's as simple as that.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88 no, Palestinian children don't deserve to die.

Neither do Israeli children.

Yet as long as Hamas remains in power in Gaza, this will happen again. It's as simple as that.

You are insane Wat0n.

You can have an issue with Hamas. But how do killing en masse innocents make the situation better? It makes it much worse.

Imagine killing 30,000 Israeli children if you are Hamas to get one IDF fighter? That is CRAZY shit.

Israel and Zionism and crazy behavior of apartheid and wanting to colonize that nation and not facing what needs to happen is really insane.

You dehumanize those women, and children and men who are innocent and you justify it with blood rage with a group that was created specifically to undermine the PLO.

It is just a total lack of humane thinking. You do not create these kinds of situations if you have human rights and ethics and morality. NEVER.

It is a total breakdown in humanity. It is terrible.

No, one child is too many to be shaking in fear, and being bombed out and killed outright. I heard horrific things. My husband was freaked out with one story of some entire family being bombed out and the woman was seven and a half months pregnant. They removed her child from her dead body still alive. The Aunt had to come and raise her and the uncle. The husband dead, the wife dead, and the older child all dead. That baby girl barely made it. Will grow up without knowing her family.

What kind of insanity of killing is justified? In what kind of mindset?

We have a Holocaust denying fucking Nazi in this forum. And I am the only one in there confronting him on denying the Holocaust. Deustchmania and I. But you are here Wat0n defending IDF atrocities and not confronting the Nazis from the USA in their Holocaust denial and you have the fucking GALL to tell me I am in the wrong?

I am leaving because I am going to get very angry....and when I do? It is OFFENSIVE.

Me voy!

[wat0n]

You are insane Wat0n.

You can have an issue with Hamas. But how do killing en masse innocents make the situation better? It makes it much worse.

Imagine killing 30,000 Israeli children if you are Hamas to get one IDF fighter? That is CRAZY shit.

Israel and Zionism and crazy behavior of apartheid and wanting to colonize that nation and not facing what needs to happen is really insane.

You dehumanize those women, and children and men who are innocent and you justify it with blood rage with a group that was created specifically to undermine the PLO.

It is just a total lack of humane thinking. You do not create these kinds of situations if you have human rights and ethics and morality. NEVER.

It is a total breakdown in humanity. It is terrible.

No, one child is too many to be shaking in fear, and being bombed out and killed outright. I heard horrific things. My husband was freaked out with one story of some entire family being bombed out and the woman was seven and a half months pregnant. They removed her child from her dead body still alive. The Aunt had to come and raise her and the uncle. The husband dead, the wife dead, and the older child all dead. That baby girl barely made it. Will grow up without knowing her family.

What kind of insanity of killing is justified? In what kind of mindset?

We have a Holocaust denying fucking Nazi in this forum. And I am the only one in there confronting him on denying the Holocaust. Deustchmania and I. But you are here Wat0n defending IDF atrocities and not confronting the Nazis from the USA in their Holocaust denial and you have the fucking GALL to tell me I am in the wrong?

I am leaving because I am going to get very angry....and when I do? It is OFFENSIVE.

Me voy!

So in your view, Hamas should be allowed to do another massacre again down the line? That's it? If Hamas wants to keep fighting forever, it should be allowed to do so because they launch rockets and generally operate from cities and therefore hitting them means killing civilians who are around?

Hamas was created by religious Palestinians as the offshoot of another Islamic group (the Muslim Brotherhood). As such, it is ideologically opposed to a secular, formerly socialist, group like the PLO and indeed undermines it. Not that undermining the PLO justifies granting it a "commit 10,000 October 7s with no consequence" pass.

It seems murdering Jews is bad and worth fighting against but only if Nazis and other right-wingers do it. Murdering us in name of "anti-imperialism" and "decolonization" is alright for the Western left. Not that those of us who grew up outside the US and Israel did not know already, anyway.

[Rancid]

I have never been wacko at anything. I never thought immoral acts on any one political side is acceptable.

Maybe you are not as far left as you think you are.

[Tainari88]

@Rancid anyone who applauds and approves genocidal acts against any human beings at all are not only immoral but incredibly biased and should be discarded completely as humanists or as believing in human rights.

What are human rights?

Here is a copy of it.

https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/fil ... 3/udhr.pdf

If you read that document, there are a lot of violations of human rights being done and have been done against the Palestinians. That is why this Jewish man who's parents survived the Nazi concentration camps is on the side of the Palestinians. Why? Because the reason Jews were discriminated against by the Third Reich were because of violations of recognizing them as fellow human beings and as equals and with rights. You strip people of human rights? Then you do awful things to them.

Israel had to be not only treating the Palestinians as equals under the law and with respect and brotherhood, but cooperating to make sure they had food, water, work, and all the rest. Not denying them everything. Nazis were inhumane, disrespectful, murderous, and discriminatory towards all Jews. The Jewish state of Israel should have learned from its past in the concentration camps of WWII. You need to be much better than the ENEMY that oppresses you. Be HUMANE. Be human. Give all human beings the rights that the Jewish prisoners and victims were denied in the Third Reich.

Instead, Netanyahu is acting like the worst Nazi....throwing bombs on the homes, killing indiscriminately children, denying water, food and medical supplies and fuel, all because HAMAS. Well, guess what HAMAS does not equal all of Palestine. If he can't distinguish between the two? He is a flawed leader. He is not popular with the orthodox Jews, he is not popular with many secular Jews who live in Israel. Many Jewish settlers have left Israel. Who wants to live in a nation at war with bombs reigning from the sky towards Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or who knows where else? Most of the Jews who were thinking about moving there have left.

Was that the way to make Israel stronger? Violent bloody wars, and becoming a pariah in the International community?

You have to be better than your traumatic past. More human and better than the oppressors that screwed your people over.

No tolerance for racists and their bullshit should be the policy. No tolerance for lack of respect for universal human rights as described in the UN Charter on Universal Human Rights.

People have a right to life, dignity, and basics for living. They also have a right to education, peace and to be allowed a path to have work that is paid to help their families.

If you can't accept someone's who's ethnicity bothers you, or race bothers you, or creed, or religion, or political point of view bothers you so much that you HAVE to MURDER them so you can take their land and have the all Israeli state only and forget that Palestinians were there as well...but you conveniently ethnic cleansed them? How different is Netanyahu in mentality than the Nazi leadership in WWII? They are two peas in a pod.

[Rancid]

@Rancid anyone who applauds and approves genocidal acts against any human beings at all are not only immoral but incredibly biased and should be discarded completely as humanists or as believing in human rights.

So you do, or do not applaud Oct 7th? If you say yes, then perhaps you are a far leftist. If you say no, then perhaps you are not.

What I see here is the far right points to "Look at Hamas and Palestinians and how horrible they are for Oct7.... blah blah blah.. the usual stuff". Then we see the far left saying "Look at how horrible Israel is for these wars, blah blah blah the usual stuff"

Is it not possible that both are terrible? Is it not possible that focusing on one side will not resolve anything, because it just fuels the other one sided approach?

This is why this will go on and on.

[Pants-of-dog]

As always, the far left and far right are two sides of the same wacko coin.

In this conflict, neither if those groups are participating.

The IDF and Israeli government are simply centrist liberals like any other western government.

Hamas is neither, since left and right are "western" paradigms and we have been told many times that Arabs are not part of the west.

As are as I can tell, the ongoing genocide, mass rapes, et cetera are being openly supported by most western countries and many of their (centrist) populations.

[Tainari88]

So you do, or do not applaud Oct 7th? If you say yes, then perhaps you are a far leftist. If you say no, then perhaps you are not.

What I see here is the far right points to "Look at Hamas and Palestinians and how horrible they are for Oct7.... blah blah blah.. the usual stuff". Then we see the far left saying "Look at how horrible Israel is for these wars, blah blah blah the usual stuff"

Is it not possible that both are terrible? Is it not possible that focusing on one side will not resolve anything, because it just fuels the other one sided approach?

This is why this will go on and on.

I never approved of October 7th. But two super wrongs do not make a right. Why is this stupid narrative about if someone says they are for Palestinian rights they automatically are approving of that massacre of Israelis by Hamas on October 7th? That is a shitty theme that is WRONG. You can be a Jew like many who protest Netanyahu and be against the October 7th massacre and also know that what is happening to the Palestinians presently is WRONG.

What the hell is wrong with callous shit against babies and children because October 7th is about revenge? How insane is that crap!!

And you are prejudiced against Leftists in your head Rancid.

You are not arguing about October 7th. You are arguing against people who do not believe in GENOCIDE. People getting killed trying to get flour off a truck are terrorists for trying to eat? What kind of BULLSHIT is that?

No, I am not wacko. What is wacko are people who are conservative and who HATE anything that is leftist and paint the Left as all wackos, or nutjobs or terrorists or this or that.

The Right is full of racists, and freaks. Most of MAGA is brainwashed. But you do not criticize them enough in my opinion. Not you Rancid, but the rest of the Right wing in this board. They do not criticize the racism, the partisan hackery and the lies these people do. They are not one or two blow Joes they are 75 Million voters. A lot. Unless they are confronted with their racism and their crazy ass behavior on a daily basis and have conversations about why they continue to vote for someone who has no principles, who is a lying manipulator and who is the worst unethical piece of shit person to come along in a very long time in politics. And you allow them to be blind?

You will have a very bad situation. The Left that is ethical and I consider myself one of those? Is not the ENEMY. Yet, the ones brainwashed their entire political lives to see the only real threat as the socialists, etc. and not the far right racist and violent? Are in for a very rude awakening. And it is their fault for assigning the danger for human life on the socialist Left in Latin America and not on the far right Nazi trend in the USA. You left them unmolested for far too long. Why? Because you are classist, and racist and discriminatory and refused to do what needed to be done about it LONG AGO. Refused.

The liberals all copped that narrative of being anti discriminatory when they were just liars. But you assigned the flaws of the liberals to all of the Leftists who were sincere and did their work with no contradictions between actions and words. You let pro capitalistic liberals who exploit a lot and do double talk to be the definition of Leftism. They are not the definition of Leftism.

Again, I am a humanist and a socialist. From the Latin American tradition. Human rights, respect, international cooperation, and not murdering and so on to get to power. That is not my philosophy. The murdering to get to power is the far Right and their minions. You need to focus on them. Because the people in my column are few. But the people in that growing violent Right column in the USA are MANY.

Focus. Or perish with ignorance.

[Rancid]

But two super wrongs do not make a right.

agree

[Rancid]

In this conflict, neither if those groups are participating.

The IDF and Israeli government are simply centrist liberals like any other western government.

Hamas is neither, since left and right are "western" paradigms and we have been told many times that Arabs are not part of the west.

As are as I can tell, the ongoing genocide, mass rapes, et cetera are being openly supported by most western countries and many of their (centrist) populations.

Of course, and I'm not talking about Hamas or the IDF. I'm precisely talking about those in the west taking a hardline side between those two groups. Two sides of the same wacko coin. Hence, the left-right point is in fact relevant to my comments.

[QatzelOk]

...Palestinian children don't deserve to die...

Yet as long as Hamas remains in power in Gaza, this will happen again. It's as simple as that.

Though you accuse many people ("leftists") of having a fondness for rape and murder and nose-picking, you yourself are really using the logic of a rapist in this above quote.

"They have Hamas, we will kill them. As simple as that."

A fast-talking rapist might blame "her red dress" on the reason they raped a woman. "As long as she wears that red dress, she's gonna get raped. Simple as that."

Neither the red dress... nor the particular party ruling Gaza... provide a reason to commit rape or genocide... as you are suggesting they do.

[Saeko]

So you do, or do not applaud Oct 7th? If you say yes, then perhaps you are a far leftist. If you say no, then perhaps you are not.

What I see here is the far right points to "Look at Hamas and Palestinians and how horrible they are for Oct7.... blah blah blah.. the usual stuff". Then we see the far left saying "Look at how horrible Israel is for these wars, blah blah blah the usual stuff"

Is it not possible that both are terrible? Is it not possible that focusing on one side will not resolve anything, because it just fuels the other one sided approach?

This is why this will go on and on.

Not in this case. Israel treats the entire Palestinian population as a subhuman enemy that must be exterminated. In the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinians are afforded no human rights whatsoever by the occupying forces, and, at the same time, are not allowed to form their own state to protect themselves from these savage abuses.

Israel cannot have it both ways. Either it claims the whole of Palestine for itself, in which case, Palestinians must have the exact same rights and citizenship status as all other Israeli citizens, or it must cede some territory to an independent Palestinian state.

Unfortunately, Israel is an extremely racist apartheid ethno-regime, so both of the options above are seen as existential threats. The only way out of its dilemma is through genocide.

[Tainari88]

Not in this case. Israel treats the entire Palestinian population as a subhuman enemy that must be exterminated. In the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinians are afforded no human rights whatsoever by the occupying forces, and, at the same time, are not allowed to form their own state to protect themselves from these savage abuses.

Israel cannot have it both ways. Either it claims the whole of Palestine for itself, in which case, Palestinians must have the exact same rights and citizenship status as all other Israeli citizens, or it must cede some territory to an independent Palestinian state.

Unfortunately, Israel is an extremely racist apartheid ethno-regime, so both of the options above are seen as existential threats. The only way out of its dilemma is through genocide.

Jewish young people during Passover are really about justice for ALL people.

[Rancid]

Not in this case. Israel treats the entire Palestinian population as a subhuman enemy that must be exterminated. In the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinians are afforded no human rights whatsoever by the occupying forces, and, at the same time, are not allowed to form their own state to protect themselves from these savage abuses.

Israel cannot have it both ways. Either it claims the whole of Palestine for itself, in which case, Palestinians must have the exact same rights and citizenship status as all other Israeli citizens, or it must cede some territory to an independent Palestinian state.

Unfortunately, Israel is an extremely racist apartheid ethno-regime, so both of the options above are seen as existential threats. The only way out of its dilemma is through genocide.

Agree, but Israel could have easily exterminated all Palestinians years and years ago. Something stopped them from doing that.

Anyway, so my question to you is, should we be cheering on more and more Oct 7th type attacks in Israel? Would that solve this in the way you suggested?